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  1. #66
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    Can't compare stats with then and now....different era's...but just from my point of view...

    (1) Stabler..best passer of his era IMO, QB for the "Missing Ring Team", and a Super Bowl winner..coolest QB in the last two minutes ever IMO..
    (2) Namath...ungodly arm and an incredible athlete until his knee injury....and a Super Bowl winner. Changed professional football forever in one game. Basically forced the merger of the AFL and NFL.
    (3) Tua..First pick in next years draft IMO unless some beast emerges at DE or LB. Incredibly gifted talent and fabulous person.
    (4) A.J.--Has simply performed at every level. Two national titles in college. Maybe the most under rated QB I can remember from a leadership, skill set, production, overall results perspective.
    (5) Jalen..His story speaks for itself

  2. #67
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by BamaMoon View Post
    NC teams usually need/have great QB play. Might could argue 09 was one without it.
    I know it takes a team, but there's a reason we associate great teams with great QBs.
    Respectfully, I think you're confusing an NFL reality with a CFB myth.

    Ohio State won a national title with a 3rd string quarterback who didn't even play until the playoffs.
    Auburn played for a national title with Nick Marshall - an okay guy to run their system but not a great QB by any means.




    Quote Originally Posted by BamaMoon View Post
    But what I loved about AJ was his heart. He wasn't the most talented, which is evident by his NFL career as a backup, but he also is what I consider one of the greatest college QBs one could find.
    I think AJ was a quality college QB and one of our best at the Capstone.

    Quote Originally Posted by BamaMoon View Post
    And two of his most memorable games came under the greatest spotlight. His game against LSU in for the 2011 BCS was an incredible performance of leadership, skill and accuracy. And then his game against ND the next year, while seeming like a walk in the park, was a thing of beauty too.

    And of course, while his game in 2012 against LSU in the regular season wasn't pretty, I'd put his game winning drive that culminated in "AJ to TJ" as one of the greatest drives in Bama history (right up there with Shula's drive and Tiffin's FG - "the kick"). Remember, before that drive we couldn't hardly make a first down or complete a pass against that LSU defense and then that drive happened. In context, it was almost unbelievable!!!
    AJ also bears a large degree of responsibility for the ATM loss that year. No, it's not his fault we had trouble with JF2, but his leading pass to Kenny Bell that was intercepted as not a smart move, and he threw an interception on the must-win play. We lost that game mostly because we had three turnovers, and he was responsible for two of them. Now tbf - I think his overall legacy is phenomenal, but that particular game really bugged me even though I blame Nussmeier's play calling more than AJ - who, after all, threw two memorable bombs that got us close.

    Quote Originally Posted by BamaMoon View Post
    And remember AJ got his first ring as McElroy's backup. 3 NC rings.

    He was a stud way before Brent Musburger realized it!
    Well yeah but Cliff Stoudt got two Super Bowl rings before he ever took an NFL snap, too.
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  3. #68
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    I'm surprised Steadman Shealy hasn't gotten more love for this list.

    I always thought he was the best QB of the Bryant wishbone era, even better than Terry Davis. Davis was a better pure runner. But Shealy was a good runner in his own right, plus, he opened up the passing game, and always, always, always made the right decision. While we were definitely a run-oriented team during that time, we had the best passing game of any wishbone competitor, and Shealy was the reason for that.

    Richard Todd was definitely the most talented wishbone QB. I just never felt that he fully developed that talent, particularly the mental aspects of the QB position. Net net, if I were in a must-perform situation -- like the last 5 minutes of the 1979 Iron Bowl -- I'd take Shealy every time. For all his talent, I just wouldn't see Todd leading that march in that situation.
    Last edited by 4Q Basket Case; July 4th, 2019 at 09:00 AM.
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by FThomas View Post
    I just want to give another shout out to Harry Gilmer. He has only been mentioned once in four pages and deserves a bit more attention. All-SEC twice, SEC player of the year. He led the nation in TD passes his sophmore year. As a Senior, an All-American and finished his last season undefeated and crushing USC in the Rose Bowl game (the one where they wanted no more SEC teams afterward).

    It's difficult enough to rate QBs from the 1960s, an era from which we do have some film.

    It's damned near impossible to evaluate someone like Gilmer at a time when very few folks who saw him play are even alive, and we have very little tape of his abilities. But I appreciate you bringing this up - sincerely.


    To show how much things have changed - in 1962, the passing yardage leader was Miami's George Mira....with 1863 yards, or about a month of games for Tua (assuming he played to the final whistle, of course). Mira also led the nation in passes attempted.....with 306.
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    Let me a contrarian for just a moment here - that's how we arrive at correct conclusions sometimes.

    (And before anyone comes after me, I'm NOT knocking Namath. For Pete's sake, I've got him rated in the top five myself but the better question - and I have to ask myself this, too - is "why").


    Can anyone actually make a case for Joe Namath, even including the fact he played in an era less focused on the pass?

    Not "he was a good athlete"
    Not "he was a great QB"
    Not "this is what I think his reputation was"
    Not "but he won the Super Bowl after guaranteeing it"
    Not "I saw him play and he was as good as so and so"

    Can anyone actually make the case FOR Namath? Because I don't think the numbers bear it out.

    How many of you actually looked at his college stats? I confess I didn't, I'm going off Bryant's evaluation of Joe overall.

    But pretend you don't know the name of the person and then tell me what you think:


    203 completions
    374 attempts
    54.3% completion passer
    24 TDs
    20 INTs

    (In only his sophomore year did Namath have MORE passing TDs than INTs (13-8, 7-7, 4-5).

    So...he must have been a fantastic runner, right????

    190 attempts for 563 yards and 15 TDs (the last number is pretty good but would require micro-analysis to evaluate - 15 QB sneak plunges from the 1/2 yard line is not very imipressive).

    An average of 3.0 yards per rush in a rushing era.


    OK, so how does he rank compared to his peers at the same time - we have to have context.

    It's easier to tell you the few times he rated nationally: he didn't. He was 14th nationally in passing yards in 1962.
    He led the SEC in two categories: yards in 1962 and passing TDs in 1963, the same year he completed less than 1/2 of his passes.

    In 1964, Namath quarterbacked the national champions. He was fifth in total yards.....not nationally but in the SEC despite playing every game.

    Now don't get huffy with me and argue that I don't know what I'm talking about since I'm just asking what I think is a fair question.

    I've long thought Namath's induction into the Pro Football Hall of Fame was in large part due to his SB III win and charisma. And no, I DON'T hate the guy (hey, I wanted to kiss Suzy Kolber, too, back in the day), but I'm just asking a fair question.


    OK, he was undoubtedly a leader. I'll assent to that. The man had some pretty lousy luck with his knees, too.
    He had a ton of charisma (still does even in that coat).

    But what's the REAL argument in favor of Namath? Serious question.
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  6. #71
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4Q Basket Case View Post
    I'm surprised Steadman Shealy hasn't gotten more love for this list.

    I always thought he was the best QB of the Bryant wishbone era, even better than Terry Davis. Davis was a better pure runner. But Shealy was a good runner in his own right, plus, he opened up the passing game, and always, always, always made the right decision. While we were definitely a run-oriented team during that time, we had the best passing game of any wishbone competitor, and Shealy was the reason for that.
    I really wanted to include him for the reasons you cite. Of course, I'm a bit limited since the only things I've seen of Davis, Todd, and a few others is on film. But Steadman was always my favorite. I went through watching our games that I can find - and highlights - for my upcoming 1979 write-up, and he was phenomenal.
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  7. #72
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    I'll vote for Bobby Skelton...doesn't necessarily belong on this list, but he was a Bama QB and a GREAT man. I believe he led CBB's largest comeback victory for Bama over GT? ...and he was a family friend!!! on TideFans.com(Selma?)
    Quote Originally Posted by 4Q Basket Case View Post
    I'm surprised Steadman Shealy hasn't gotten more love for this list.

    I always thought he was the best QB of the Bryant wishbone era, even better than Terry Davis. Davis was a better pure runner. But Shealy was a good runner in his own right, plus, he opened up the passing game, and always, always, always made the right decision. While we were definitely a run-oriented team during that time, we had the best passing game of any wishbone competitor, and Shealy was the reason for that.

    Richard Todd was definitely the most talented wishbone QB. I just never felt that he fully developed that talent, particularly the mental aspects of the QB position. Net net, if I were in a must-perform situation -- like the last 5 minutes of the 1979 Iron Bowl -- I'd take Shealy every time. For all his talent, I just wouldn't see Todd leading that march in that situation.

  8. #73
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by selmaborntidefan View Post
    Let me a contrarian for just a moment here - that's how we arrive at correct conclusions sometimes.

    (And before anyone comes after me, I'm NOT knocking Namath. For Pete's sake, I've got him rated in the top five myself but the better question - and I have to ask myself this, too - is "why").


    Can anyone actually make a case for Joe Namath, even including the fact he played in an era less focused on the pass?

    Not "he was a good athlete"
    Not "he was a great QB"
    Not "this is what I think his reputation was"
    Not "but he won the Super Bowl after guaranteeing it"
    Not "I saw him play and he was as good as so and so"

    Can anyone actually make the case FOR Namath? Because I don't think the numbers bear it out.

    How many of you actually looked at his college stats? I confess I didn't, I'm going off Bryant's evaluation of Joe overall.

    But pretend you don't know the name of the person and then tell me what you think:


    203 completions
    374 attempts
    54.3% completion passer
    24 TDs
    20 INTs

    (In only his sophomore year did Namath have MORE passing TDs than INTs (13-8, 7-7, 4-5).

    So...he must have been a fantastic runner, right????

    190 attempts for 563 yards and 15 TDs (the last number is pretty good but would require micro-analysis to evaluate - 15 QB sneak plunges from the 1/2 yard line is not very imipressive).

    An average of 3.0 yards per rush in a rushing era.


    OK, so how does he rank compared to his peers at the same time - we have to have context.

    It's easier to tell you the few times he rated nationally: he didn't. He was 14th nationally in passing yards in 1962.
    He led the SEC in two categories: yards in 1962 and passing TDs in 1963, the same year he completed less than 1/2 of his passes.

    In 1964, Namath quarterbacked the national champions. He was fifth in total yards.....not nationally but in the SEC despite playing every game.

    Now don't get huffy with me and argue that I don't know what I'm talking about since I'm just asking what I think is a fair question.

    I've long thought Namath's induction into the Pro Football Hall of Fame was in large part due to his SB III win and charisma. And no, I DON'T hate the guy (hey, I wanted to kiss Suzy Kolber, too, back in the day), but I'm just asking a fair question.


    OK, he was undoubtedly a leader. I'll assent to that. The man had some pretty lousy luck with his knees, too.
    He had a ton of charisma (still does even in that coat).

    But what's the REAL argument in favor of Namath? Serious question.
    I believe that those who saw Namath in the 1965 Orange Bowl against Texas, in particular, and the 1963 Orange Bowl against Oklahoma would rate him as one of the greatest Alabama QB's of all time regardless of his statistics. He was named All American at QB by the AP despite the fact that John Huard of ND was awarded the Heisman Trophy.

    In reading the discussions above it has been interesting to see how the talent level of the entire team affect our attitudes toward QB's. As an example Stabler and the team had the perfect record in 1966 which we all remember but struggled to a 8-2-1 season in Stabler's senior season with a 7-6 highly controversial escape from Tiger Stadium. Even with Stabler's heroics it became clear in hindsight that CPB's most painful seasons, 68-69, were just ahead.
    Last edited by UAH; July 4th, 2019 at 06:46 PM.

  9. #74
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by selmaborntidefan View Post
    Respectfully, I think you're confusing an NFL reality with a CFB myth.

    Ohio State won a national title with a 3rd string quarterback who didn't even play until the playoffs.
    Auburn played for a national title with Nick Marshall - an okay guy to run their system but not a great QB by any means.






    I think AJ was a quality college QB and one of our best at the Capstone.



    AJ also bears a large degree of responsibility for the ATM loss that year. No, it's not his fault we had trouble with JF2, but his leading pass to Kenny Bell that was intercepted as not a smart move, and he threw an interception on the must-win play. We lost that game mostly because we had three turnovers, and he was responsible for two of them. Now tbf - I think his overall legacy is phenomenal, but that particular game really bugged me even though I blame Nussmeier's play calling more than AJ - who, after all, threw two memorable bombs that got us close.



    Well yeah but Cliff Stoudt got two Super Bowl rings before he ever took an NFL snap, too.


    Scott Frost has more NC rings than Peyton Manning. Does anyone believe Scott Frost is a better college football qb than Peyton Manning? NC rings= greatness of quarterbacking is a pretty hard argument to get behind unless you are going to seriously put Frost over Manning. I wouldnít even put Wuerfell and a heisman trophy over Manning. It pains me to praise Manning, but the facts are the facts, and they are that he was probably the best college qb ,if not the best football player , in the 90ís. Scott Frost was not in the same universe as Peyton.

    Itís like the folks that put undefeated qbs on a pedestal over non undefeated. Saban has two (3 but Iím counting season starters) undefeated starters at qb and seriously doubt anyone believes they are better than AJ.
    Last edited by 81usaf92; July 4th, 2019 at 10:17 AM.

  10. #75
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    I don't think anybody is suggesting a QB wins a NC or Super Bowl ring by himself. And because there is less parity in the college game than NFL it's true teams win NCs without great QBs on the college level. Having acknowledged that, it's also not fair to brush aside great QB play just because there's great talent around him.

    Just as an example, Tua was surrounded by what would have probably gone down as Alabama's best offense ever (maybe still is) had we beat Clemson and finished 15-0. But would anybody brush Tua's amazing statistical year aside just because he was surrounded by the best skill players in college football last year?

    And, BTW, throwing out Scott Frost as an example is ignorning context. He was QB in an option/run heavy offense. Context matters. If we can't hold Joe Namath or Ken Stabler responsible for not playing in an era of great offensive skills we also shouldn't punish AJ for playing while surrounded by incredible talented teams.

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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by BamaMoon View Post
    I don't think anybody is suggesting a QB wins a NC or Super Bowl ring by himself. And because there is less parity in the college game than NFL it's true teams win NCs without great QBs on the college level. Having acknowledged that, it's also not fair to brush aside great QB play just because there's great talent around him.

    Just as an example, Tua was surrounded by what would have probably gone down as Alabama's best offense ever (maybe still is) had we beat Clemson and finished 15-0. But would anybody brush Tua's amazing statistical year aside just because he was surrounded by the best skill players in college football last year?

    And, BTW, throwing out Scott Frost as an example is ignorning context. He was QB in an option/run heavy offense. Context matters. If we can't hold Joe Namath or Ken Stabler responsible for not playing in an era of great offensive skills we also shouldn't punish AJ for playing while surrounded by incredible talented teams.
    So this is more of ď I donít like the label of game manager when it pertains to AJĒ.

    You asked about 2 games in 2012 in which we couldíve easily ran the ball to win both games, not any games in 2011 or 2013. AJ became one of the greatest qbs in Bama history in 2013 not 2012 is my point. In that season he was doing more for the offense than he ever did in his previous two years. Too bad he still had a donkey for an OC or else he wouldíve played for 3 NCs.

    But to address both games that you brought up:

    2012 LSU: AJ had a qbr of 47 and a just over 50% passing completion percentage. On the other hand Lacy had 83 yards with 7.5 ypc and Yeldon had 76 yards with 7.9 ypc. The story of the game was Nuss abandoning the run in the 2nd half

    2012 UGA: AJ has a 35 qbr with BOTH Yeldon and Lacy over 150 yards. 90% of our troubles in that game revolved around AJ passing in the 1st half instead of pounding the ball. Thank god CNS didnít let Nuss call another horrible game like he did vs LSU and aTm.

    Neither of those games needed AJ until they did. We couldíve ran the ball 90% of the plays called and won going away. Dumb play calling led to both being classics.

    AJ in 2012 was a game manager and there is no way around it. He was just a better version of Jay Barker and Gmac. His job was hand it off and make a pass here and there. In 2013 he didnít have the line or the running backs ( yes he had Henry but we hardly used him).

    Btw if you believe Scott Frost was the best qb to play in the 1998 Orange Bowl then I think you really need to rewatch some film on both qbs. The point was one of the greatest college qbs of all time failed to win the two biggest prizes but yet a cog was able to win a national championship on 12 passes.
    Last edited by 81usaf92; July 4th, 2019 at 11:23 AM.

  12. #77
    BamaNation Hall of Fame selmaborntidefan's Avatar
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    Thank you for your courteous reply (I expected nothing less from you btw).

    Quote Originally Posted by UAH View Post
    I believe that those who saw Namath in the 1965 Orange Bowl against Texas, in particular, and the 1963 Orange Bowl against Oklahoma would rate him as one of the greatest Alabama QB's of all time regardless of his statistics. He was named All American at QB by the AP despite the fact that John Huard of ND was awarded the Heisman Trophy.
    Not to disagree, but I don't see his name on the list.

    Now, he did have an MVP performance against Texas and FOR THE TIME his numbers in that game are pretty good (18 for 37, 255 yds, 2 TD).

    My only objection here would be this idea that we base things on 1-2 games. However - in defense of Joe - most games in that day were not televised so all they could go off of was hype or stats or what they heard on TV.


    Let's be clear: in terms of ABILITY, Joe Namath was miles ahead of Jay Barker or Pat Trammell, something I don't think either of those men would dispute. So I can see part of the argument as well, which is why I asked this question. Statistics are the lens through which we look, but it can be distorted by things as well.

    Hell, Notre Dame has a bunch of guys who won the Heisman for no reason other than they played for Notre Dame. The tongue bathing media that built up Ndaumkong Suh and Manti Teo as Heisman candidates (or Charles Woodson just to be blunt) is a sick joke.


    Quote Originally Posted by UAH View Post
    In reading the discussions above it has been interesting to see how the talent level of the entire team affect our attitudes toward QB's. As an example Stapler and the team had the perfect record in 1966 which we all remember but struggled to a 8-2-1 season in Stabler's senior season with a 7-6 highly controversial escape from Tiger Stadium. Even with Stabler's heroics it became clear in hindsight that CPB's most painful seasons, 68-69, were just ahead.
    This is a good observation and one we do well to remember.


    Jay Barker - in terms of "would you pick this guy to build your team around" - might not even rate in the top ten all-time at Alabama in terms of ability. For three years, he ho-hummed along as a Greg McElroy type player but made more mistakes. His senior year, he was VERY good. But I actually think in terms of the talent as a QB (not considering the WR talent), I think Jalen Hurts is light years ahead of Barker, who was one of my favorite players.

    But Barker has some AJ-type stats mostly because he had an all-world defense at the critical time.

    CONTEXT is everything here.
    My New Year's resolution for 2019 is this year I'm not going to drink anymore. I'm not going to drink any less, either.

    I was married for 25 years, but if I'd killed her on the honeymoon, I'd have been out in less than 20.

    Butch Jones has richly earned his title, The Archbishop of Talentbury

    After reading all the horrible things drinking will do to you....I gave up reading.

  13. #78
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    I included Joe in my top 5 for a number of reasons. When someone in the know speaks, listen. That tidbit of wisdom could have served me well in the 2019 Kentucky Derby when Bob Baffert said Improbable was the quickest of his 3 entries. Oh well. When Bear Bryant calls him the greatest he ever coached, listen. When John Madden calls him the best pure passer he's ever seen, listen. When former coaches and players describe the "whooshing" sound they heard when the ball left his hand, listen. He's the only QB I've ever heard of, that was described so.

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