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  1. #79
    BamaNation Hall of Fame selmaborntidefan's Avatar
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by 81usaf92 View Post
    Scott Frost has more NC rings than Peyton Manning. Does anyone believe Scott Frost is a better college football qb than Peyton Manning? NC rings= greatness of quarterbacking is a pretty hard argument to get behind unless you are going to seriously put Frost over Manning. I wouldnít even put Wuerfell and a heisman trophy over Manning. It pains me to praise Manning, but the facts are the facts, and they are that he was probably the best college qb ,if not the best football player , in the 90ís. Scott Frost was not in the same universe as Peyton.

    Itís like the folks that put undefeated qbs on a pedestal over non undefeated. Saban has two (3 but Iím counting season starters) undefeated starters at qb and seriously doubt anyone believes they are better than AJ.
    In fairness to Bama Moon, he has modified what seemed an extreme opening statement on the titles, but let's also grant him the concession and grace that he realizes the ring argument is a sub-point and not the main point.

    As far as AJ, I'm in general agreement with you in 2012. I think that when a lot of people assess AJ, they think of the Iron Bowl bombs to Amari, the comeback and hold off against ATM, and the highlights of the year. Even in the 2012 UGA game where everyone recalls his bomb to Amari to win the SEC title, he only got that because UGA stacked the box because we were running every down.


    However - given the misfiring we saw from Hurts to wide open all-star receivers, let's at least give AJ credit for actually being able to throw the rock in those situations, too.
    My New Year's resolution for 2019 is this year I'm not going to drink anymore. I'm not going to drink any less, either.

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  2. #80
    BamaNation Hall of Fame selmaborntidefan's Avatar
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBamaBeno View Post
    I included Joe in my top 5 for a number of reasons. When someone in the know speaks, listen. That tidbit of wisdom could have served me well in the 2019 Kentucky Derby when Bob Baffert said Improbable was the quickest of his 3 entries. Oh well. When Bear Bryant calls him the greatest he ever coached, listen. When John Madden calls him the best pure passer he's ever seen, listen.
    I'm well aware of Bryant but.....did Madden ever actually say this? I ask because a web search shows that same basic quote attributed to both Madden AND Bill Walsh, which makes it rather suspicious to say the least. (Also - we're talking about Namath at Alabama, not in the NFL where Madden faced him. Now - to be fair - I DO have a quote from Madden from just prior to Super Bowl XIX where he's talking about the quick release of Dan Marino and compares him to Namath).

    We get manufactured quotes all the time when folks are building cases for borderline HOF cases - like the preposterous claim that Casey Stengel rated Phil Rizzuto the 2nd best shortstop of all-time behind Honus Wagner.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBamaBeno View Post
    When former coaches and players describe the "whooshing" sound they heard when the ball left his hand, listen. He's the only QB I've ever heard of, that was described so.
    And by the same context - some of the folks younger than I who look at Namath's numbers that are WAY down the board now have to remember the era in which he played.


    Make no mistake - I think a case CAN be made for Namath, it's just that a statistical one is not going to work. I think a focus on his leadership and athleticism (overall).


    Note: I actually have a tougher time with the case for Ken Stabler than I do for the one with Joe Namath. It was easier for me to include Namath than to include Stabler is what I'm saying.
    My New Year's resolution for 2019 is this year I'm not going to drink anymore. I'm not going to drink any less, either.

    I was married for 25 years, but if I'd killed her on the honeymoon, I'd have been out in less than 20.

    Butch Jones has richly earned his title, The Archbishop of Talentbury

    After reading all the horrible things drinking will do to you....I gave up reading.

  3. #81
    BamaNation Hall of Fame selmaborntidefan's Avatar
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    The case for Namath, summarized, is:
    a) leadership capacity
    b) athleticism
    c) football intelligence
    d) his college stats IN THE CONTEXT OF THEIR TIME are not bad (they would be borderline awful today)

    A reminder of the time: Roger Staubach won the 1963 Heisman Trophy with 7 TDs and 7 INT. The key point for him was completing 2/3 of his passes, a phenomenal feat in 1963.

    Namath also had 7 TDs and 7 INT that year, but he also had a lower completion pct and less than 1/2 the yards on a better overall team.
    My New Year's resolution for 2019 is this year I'm not going to drink anymore. I'm not going to drink any less, either.

    I was married for 25 years, but if I'd killed her on the honeymoon, I'd have been out in less than 20.

    Butch Jones has richly earned his title, The Archbishop of Talentbury

    After reading all the horrible things drinking will do to you....I gave up reading.

  4. #82
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 81usaf92's Avatar
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    Iím kinda surprised no one has made a case for our single game passing yards holder when he threw for way more yards than Joe Namath. I guess being known as a jerk and not winning a national championship really hurts your legacy at Alabama.
    Last edited by 81usaf92; July 4th, 2019 at 12:10 PM.

  5. #83
    BamaNation Hall of Fame selmaborntidefan's Avatar
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by 81usaf92 View Post
    I’m kinda surprised no one has made a case for our single game passing yards holder when he threw for way more yards than Joe Namath. I guess being known as a jerk and not winning a national championship really hurts your legacy at Alabama.
    Are you referring to Hunter?

    (I've been wondering why I haven't seen his name....but to my knowledge, he played during a "not so good" era.
    My New Year's resolution for 2019 is this year I'm not going to drink anymore. I'm not going to drink any less, either.

    I was married for 25 years, but if I'd killed her on the honeymoon, I'd have been out in less than 20.

    Butch Jones has richly earned his title, The Archbishop of Talentbury

    After reading all the horrible things drinking will do to you....I gave up reading.

  6. #84
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 81usaf92's Avatar
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by selmaborntidefan View Post
    Are you referring to Hunter?

    (I've been wondering why I haven't seen his name....but to my knowledge, he played during a "not so good" era.
    Yes

  7. #85
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by 81usaf92 View Post
    Yes
    So is he a jerk? I only hear his name when someone gets to musing about Ole Miss and 1969 and "those were the best days of my life" stuff.
    My New Year's resolution for 2019 is this year I'm not going to drink anymore. I'm not going to drink any less, either.

    I was married for 25 years, but if I'd killed her on the honeymoon, I'd have been out in less than 20.

    Butch Jones has richly earned his title, The Archbishop of Talentbury

    After reading all the horrible things drinking will do to you....I gave up reading.

  8. #86
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 81usaf92's Avatar
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by selmaborntidefan View Post
    So is he a jerk? I only hear his name when someone gets to musing about Ole Miss and 1969 and "those were the best days of my life" stuff.
    It seems pretty much everyone that has or says they have met him says so. Itís a big reason many were disappointed that CNS and CLK took the ball out of Blakeís hand when he was in striking distance. Really no one but Blake has ever been close to it in the last 50 years.

    But itís also odd that Hunter set the record in a game that Auburn blew us out in the Bryant era. But he is most known for the duel with Archie.
    Last edited by 81usaf92; July 4th, 2019 at 07:32 PM.

  9. #87
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by selmaborntidefan View Post
    Thank you for your courteous reply (I expected nothing less from you btw).



    Not to disagree, but I don't see his name on the list.

    Now, he did have an MVP performance against Texas and FOR THE TIME his numbers in that game are pretty good (18 for 37, 255 yds, 2 TD).

    My only objection here would be this idea that we base things on 1-2 games. However - in defense of Joe - most games in that day were not televised so all they could go off of was hype or stats or what they heard on TV.


    Let's be clear: in terms of ABILITY, Joe Namath was miles ahead of Jay Barker or Pat Trammell, something I don't think either of those men would dispute. So I can see part of the argument as well, which is why I asked this question. Statistics are the lens through which we look, but it can be distorted by things as well.

    Hell, Notre Dame has a bunch of guys who won the Heisman for no reason other than they played for Notre Dame. The tongue bathing media that built up Ndaumkong Suh and Manti Teo as Heisman candidates (or Charles Woodson just to be blunt) is a sick joke.




    This is a good observation and one we do well to remember.


    Jay Barker - in terms of "would you pick this guy to build your team around" - might not even rate in the top ten all-time at Alabama in terms of ability. For three years, he ho-hummed along as a Greg McElroy type player but made more mistakes. His senior year, he was VERY good. But I actually think in terms of the talent as a QB (not considering the WR talent), I think Jalen Hurts is light years ahead of Barker, who was one of my favorite players.

    But Barker has some AJ-type stats mostly because he had an all-world defense at the critical time.

    CONTEXT is everything here.
    One additional comment about Namath in the 65 Orange Bowl Game against Texas. Steve Sloan started the game with Namath on the bench with a knee injury. Sloan could not move the ball at all against the Tommy Nobis led Texas Defense. Texas put up two quick touchdowns and appeared on their way to a beat down of Alabama. Namath entered the game and was magnificent at bringing Alabama back in what was one of the greatest games ever played on National TV up to that time. Regardless of where he should be ranked as QB at Alabama he certainly can be said to have Quarterbacked two of the most memorable games in football history. By the way, as improbable as it seems, the laces would make an audible whistle on his sideline throws, much in the way a Koufax curve ball would sound!

  10. #88
    BamaNation Hall of Fame tusks_n_raider's Avatar
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    1) Tua Tagovailoa
    2) AJ McCarron
    3) Joe Namath
    4) Kenny Stabler
    5) Bart Starr

    Honorable Mentions: Brodie Croyle, Blake Sims, Jake Coker

  11. #89
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    Iím 38 years old so I have seen my fair share of Bama QBs over the years but obviously missed out on the Namaths and the Stablers. I wonít rank them but Iíll say this, I love watching Tua throw the ball. Itís a thing of beauty to see how accurate he is.

    Also, Iím really curious what a 3 year starter version of Blake Sims and Jake Coker would look like. Those guys made some incredible plays that made my jaw drop. I remember watching Blake torch Floridaís secondary in 2014 but he also made some throws on the run that were incredible. Coker had a TD pass against Auburn where he avoided a sack and threw and absolute dime to Stewart. That throw took my breath away.

  12. #90
    BamaNation Hall of Fame BamaMoon's Avatar
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by 81usaf92 View Post
    So this is more of “ I don’t like the label of game manager when it pertains to AJ”.

    You asked about 2 games in 2012 in which we could’ve easily ran the ball to win both games, not any games in 2011 or 2013. AJ became one of the greatest qbs in Bama history in 2013 not 2012 is my point. In that season he was doing more for the offense than he ever did in his previous two years. Too bad he still had a donkey for an OC or else he would’ve played for 3 NCs.

    But to address both games that you brought up:

    2012 LSU: AJ had a qbr of 47 and a just over 50% passing completion percentage. On the other hand Lacy had 83 yards with 7.5 ypc and Yeldon had 76 yards with 7.9 ypc. The story of the game was Nuss abandoning the run in the 2nd half

    2012 UGA: AJ has a 35 qbr with BOTH Yeldon and Lacy over 150 yards. 90% of our troubles in that game revolved around AJ passing in the 1st half instead of pounding the ball. Thank god CNS didn’t let Nuss call another horrible game like he did vs LSU and aTm.

    Neither of those games needed AJ until they did. We could’ve ran the ball 90% of the plays called and won going away. Dumb play calling led to both being classics.

    AJ in 2012 was a game manager and there is no way around it. He was just a better version of Jay Barker and Gmac. His job was hand it off and make a pass here and there. In 2013 he didn’t have the line or the running backs ( yes he had Henry but we hardly used him).

    Btw if you believe Scott Frost was the best qb to play in the 1998 Orange Bowl then I think you really need to rewatch some film on both qbs. The point was one of the greatest college qbs of all time failed to win the two biggest prizes but yet a cog was able to win a national championship on 12 passes.
    Man, if I said the sky was blue you'd say it's another color and sometimes you'd be right because it might sometimes be red, yellow or black. But that doesn't change the fact it's usually blue.

    So on this topic, AJ was a great (I'd say the greatest) Alabama QB (based on his play at Bama) and that's like the sky being blue.

    Was AJ perfect? No. Was he a game manager type because that's what he was tasked to do? Yes. Did he have some games where he hurt us with his play? Yes, but what QB (at any level) doesn't? So yes, sometimes the sky is red, yellow or black and sometimes AJ wasn't good.

    But my point is, man, we were lucky to have him and you fail to give him his proper credit.

    I admit I'm partial to him and maybe my first post "overstated" the importance of NCs in this discussion but I knew as soon as I saw the OP that AJ wouldn't get his proper credit.

    BTW, I never said Frost was better than Manning...

  13. #91
    BamaNation Hall of Fame BamaMoon's Avatar
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    Re: Who are your all-time top five Alabama quarterbacks?

    Just looking at Alabama QB stats. Next year Tua will need 4500 yards to have the alltime "total yardage record."

    I don't think he'll catch AJ because last year he was just under 4000 and we threw it all over the lot. I image he'll have less this year if we emphasize/lean on the run more than last year.

    However, regardless of what happens next year with stats, unless Tua just stinks it up, he'll probably be regarded as a greatest QB of all time in terms of pure QB skills.

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