Thoughts regarding inclusion of children w/disabilities in regular classrooms.

alabama mike1

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Nationaltitles17, "How is a teacher supposed to include a kid they have no idea on how to teach (that kid), no idea how to include them, no idea how to make accommodations"

It is the job of the special education/intervention teacher to do this, NOT THE REGULAR EDUCATION TEACHER.

Many years ago, college teacher education programs only offered 1 or 2 classes in special education. I graduated from college in 84 and took 1 class called The Education of the Exceptional Child but now more classes are offered. Any teacher can make accommodations for any student but the IEP allows for the special education teacher to modify the curriculum to meet the needs of the individual student. Hope this helps.
 

NationalTitles18

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Nationaltitles17, "How is a teacher supposed to include a kid they have no idea on how to teach (that kid), no idea how to include them, no idea how to make accommodations"

It is the job of the special education/intervention teacher to do this, NOT THE REGULAR EDUCATION TEACHER.

Many years ago, college teacher education programs only offered 1 or 2 classes in special education. I graduated from college in 84 and took 1 class called The Education of the Exceptional Child but now more classes are offered. Any teacher can make accommodations for any student but the IEP allows for the special education teacher to modify the curriculum to meet the needs of the individual student. Hope this helps.
Who actually implements that modified curriculum? Who teaches the kid? Who deals with their unique problems in the classroom? Who is there where the rubber meets the road every day?
 

NationalTitles18

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Who actually implements that modified curriculum? Who teaches the kid? Who deals with their unique problems in the classroom? Who is there where the rubber meets the road every day?
To clarify why I'm asking the question: I can train anyone to change out an IV line or medication, but would you rather have someone that understands it and has been educated and trained or someone who has less training and doesn't really understand the how's and why's and may be less able to adapt to unique situations?
 

Bamabuzzard

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We sure are asking a lot of teachers who teach in general classrooms to be all things to all students. There's a saying that applies to someone who tries to be all things to all people (from a business standpoint) that I think could easily apply to this topic. "Jack of all trades but master of none". In the medical field we have physicians who are specialists. Our general practitioners do not have the capacity to know or even be trained to effectively treat all medical problems such as the kidney, heart, spine, etc. It's simply too much to ask for what our expectations are. I think to some degree this same principle applies with teachers. It sounds good, in theory/"on paper". But is it truly realistic in application?

We are very complex creatures and anyone who has taught in a classroom knows that it is very hard to effectively teach kids without special needs. Because each child is so different and unique regarding personality, temperament, home life etc. So many dynamics are at play that the teacher already has to deal with. Special needs is a very broad classification. Just like the "spectrum" for Autism is very broad. Is it realistic that a general classroom teacher has the capacity to be properly trained to deal with all special needs "out there"? Granted, I'm not saying the "regular" classroom teacher shouldn't have at least some general educational training on SPED students. But to expect them to be trained on the same level as someone who is specialized in SPED is asking a bit too much, IMO. Heck, there are specializations within the SPED educational program and the reason there is, is to try to provide the best for the child.
 
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alabama mike1

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To clarify why I'm asking the question: I can train anyone to change out an IV line or medication, but would you rather have someone that understands it and has been educated and trained or someone who has less training and doesn't really understand the how's and why's and may be less able to adapt to unique situations?
If true inclusion is taking place, the intervention teacher and the regular education teacher should be in the same classroom working together during classroom instruction. I have been working on a schedule all morning to split our incoming 9th grade intervention kids up into 3 groups so they will get Algebra 1 and then an RTI (response to intervention) class in the afternoon. The teachers are in the room together and then IF NEEDED, during the RTI, the intervention specialist works with students who may need extra help or small groups of students. By law, you also have to keep a 51%:49% ratio between regular education students and intervention students. In our case, we have 29 IEP students coming in as freshmen. I put 10 IEP students in one Alg. class, 10 in another and 9 in the last. They stay together for Algebra and English, which is what the goals of the IEP addresses. Make sense?

Here is the link to the Alabama Department of Education Special Education Department. https://www.alsde.edu/sec/ses/Pages/home.aspx
 
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Bamabuzzard

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If true inclusion is taking place, the intervention teacher and the regular education teacher should be in the same classroom working together during classroom instruction. I have been working on a schedule all morning to split our incoming 9th grade intervention kids up into 3 groups so they will get Algebra 1 and then an RTI (response to intervention) class in the afternoon. The teachers are in the room together and then IF NEEDED, during the RTI, the intervention specialist works with students who may need extra help or small groups of students. By law, you also have to keep a 51%:49% ratio between regular education students and intervention students. In our case, we have 29 IEP students coming in as freshmen. I put 10 IEP students in one Alg. class, 10 in another and 9 in the last. They stay together for Algebra and English, which is what the goals of the IEP addresses. Make sense?
Yep, almost verbatim to what my wife told me.
 

NationalTitles18

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We sure are asking a lot of teachers who teach in general classrooms to be all things to all students. There's a saying that applies to someone who tries to be all things to all people (from a business standpoint) that I think could easily apply to this topic. "Jack of all trades but master of none". In the medical field we have physicians who are specialists. Our general practitioners do not have the capacity to know or even be trained to effectively treat all medical problems such as the kidney, heart, spine, etc. It's simply too much to ask for what our expectations are. I think to some degree this same principle applies with teachers. It sounds good, in theory/"on paper". But is it truly realistic in application?

We are very complex creatures and anyone who has taught in a classroom knows that it is very hard to effectively teach kids without special needs. Because each child is so different and unique regarding personality, temperament, home life etc. So many dynamics are at play that the teacher already has to deal with. Special needs is a very broad classification. Just like the "spectrum" for Autism is very broad. Is it realistic that a general classroom teacher has the capacity to be properly trained to deal with all special needs "out there"? Granted, I'm not saying the "regular" classroom teacher shouldn't have at least some general educational training on SPED students. But to expect them to be trained on the same level as someone who is specialized in SPED is asking a bit too much, IMO. Heck, there are specializations within the SPED educational program and the reason there is, is to try to provide the best for the child.
We are asking/demanding a lot. I don't think gen ed teachers need to be all things to all students but as inclusion is the law of the land for 45 years I'd think the entire profession might have figured out how to have basic knowledge RE: special needs conditions and how to directly implement IEP's. Of course you need those who specialize. We'd be lost at times without them. But as teachers are obligated by law and professionalism to refer when needed, contribute to the plan, and implement the plan - we'd better be teaching the teachers the basics. That does not happen apparently quite often now so how are they supposed to do it? Perhaps the entire model has to change (I believe it does but I'm a parent, not a teacher).

Doctors and nurses have broad generalized training for more common conditions. Only through additional education and experience do they become specialized. That, I imagine, is true of teachers as well. What I am saying is that training that is devoid of learning about how to recognize and treat common conditions (as related to education) in the classroom is not acceptable. It would not be acceptable for a general/family practitioner and is not acceptable for teachers. Learning basic signs of an educational disability and strategies to deal with it is not an extraordinary burden.

The problem before inclusion was that special needs students were warehoused in segregated classrooms with little to no chance of actually learning anything at all. We cannot go back to that.
 

NationalTitles18

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If true inclusion is taking place, the intervention teacher and the regular education teacher should be in the same classroom working together during classroom instruction. I have been working on a schedule all morning to split our incoming 9th grade intervention kids up into 3 groups so they will get Algebra 1 and then an RTI (response to intervention) class in the afternoon. The teachers are in the room together and then IF NEEDED, during the RTI, the intervention specialist works with students who may need extra help or small groups of students. By law, you also have to keep a 51%:49% ratio between regular education students and intervention students. In our case, we have 29 IEP students coming in as freshmen. I put 10 IEP students in one Alg. class, 10 in another and 9 in the last. They stay together for Algebra and English, which is what the goals of the IEP addresses. Make sense?

Here is the link to the Alabama Department of Education Special Education Department. https://www.alsde.edu/sec/ses/Pages/home.aspx
I wish every school was perfect and that this was always the scenario. It is not and it is not.
 

alabama mike1

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....I also recently had a parent whose child I know well (and who is definitely ADHD but also shows obvious signs of autism - enough to get an evaluation, IMHO) well, she raised her concerns with the school system verbally and nothing happened. The concern was completely ignored. What she did not understand is that the request for testing must be in writing (and you better keep copies and maybe CC a couple of people) or some school admins will just pretend it never happened. I've heard similar stories from parents multiple times. Parents don't know the rules. Educators do and some - not all but some - take advantage of this to deny the child an evaluation....
If a parent makes a request in writing, the 120 day count starts as soon as any school official receives the request. With that being said, the school, now has the responsibility to hold and Intervention Assistance Meeting (IAT), get parental consent for testing, test the student, hold the meeting to let the parent know if their child qualified and then write the Intervention Plan (IEP). This is federal law!

Some of you have spoken about accomodations and modifications. Here are the definitions as related to school:

Accomodations- allows a student to complete the same assignment or test as othes students, but with a change in the timing, formatting, setting, scheduling, response and/or presentation. This does not alter in any significiant way what the test or assignment measures. This can be done for any student!


Modifications- an adjustment to an assignment or a test that changes the standard or what the test or assignment is supposed to measure. Some examples of possible modifications include a student completing work on part of a standard, a student completing an alternate assignment that is more easily achievable than the standard assignment.
This is for students with an IEP!

A 504 is written for medical needs such as a diabetic or other health impairment.
 

NationalTitles18

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So what is a school's responsibility regarding informing every single parent that these requests must be in writing prior to the parent asking for an evaluation? Again, the average person does not know this.

Now, we could take the stance that "too bad, so sad" if you are ignorance of the rules but that leaves kids on the hook for their parents' ignorance. Health care professionals have an obligation to educate. While education is not quite so complicated as health care I don't believe the average person can be expected to know things they've never had to know and never been informed.
 

alabama mike1

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So what is a school's responsibility regarding informing every single parent that these requests must be in writing prior to the parent asking for an evaluation? Again, the average person does not know this.

Now, we could take the stance that "too bad, so sad" if you are ignorance of the rules but that leaves kids on the hook for their parents' ignorance. Health care professionals have an obligation to educate. While education is not quite so complicated as health care I don't believe the average person can be expected to know things they've never had to know and never been informed.
If a parent makes a verbal request to the principal, regular/intervention teacher or any certified school employee, the person should tell the parent immediately that they need to put the request in writing if that is the board of education's policy. If its not board approved, its not policy!
 

NationalTitles18

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If a parent makes a verbal request to the principal, regular/intervention teacher or any certified school employee, the person should tell the parent immediately that they need to put the request in writing if that is the board of education's policy. If its not board approved, its not policy!
Well, there are policies and then there are "policies" just like there are honorable people and then there are "honorable" people. I recognize that some people are lazy and/or don't care to do what's right. The policy should be explicitly that any request in whatever form requires the school employee to place the matter in writing.
 
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alabama mike1

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Well, there are policies and then there are "policies" just like there are honorable people and then there are "honorable" people. I recognize that some people are lazy and/or don't care to do what's right. The policy should be explicitly that any request in whatever form requires the school employee to place the matter in writing.
Agree 100%
 
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B1GTide

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Thanks. Can anyone imagine going to your doctor and telling them of your kid’s problems and then it just gets ignored, then when you complain it was ignored and your child is suffering because of it you are told you didn’t put it in writing so it didn’t count?!
I might have to hurt someone's feelings if that happened to us.

Our youngest had developmental problems early on and the schools in our rural area had no idea what was wrong or how to help him. Thankfully we had the money to pay someone privately who worked out the problem for us and put him on a path to improvement.
 

tlockwood

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I am a teacher (12 years). I am a from a family that has been in education since my Great-Grandfather became a teacher many moons ago.

AlabamaMike the principal is correct in everything he said. The money is there in a sense, but not always available or used (by the student...I had a legally blind student who has lots of expensive equipment provided to him but does not use it for example). IEPs are a constant in my line of work and if not followed, the threat of a lawsuit is soon to follow.

There are, in my opinion, two major problems with IEPs.

1. They all say the same thing and are written from a cookie-cutter template. Almost all of them give the student extended time for assignments and tests. Preferential seating. Guided notes. My point is that there is no INDIVIDUAL in the IEP.

2. Too many parents keep searching for the right doctor who will give them the right diagnosis so that they can get their child an IEP. And if they can't get an IEP, they go for an 504 to get the same things.

So the debate over inclusion boils down to this one basic premise. Should Little Johnny, who has ADHD, be able to attend class with his peers? The simple answer is yes. BUT what happens on the days the he does not have his medication and he is bouncing off the walls. Should his right to attend class with his peers outweigh the rights of the other students? This is a very slippery slope and though many of you have simple solutions already forming in your mind, I assure you that none of them will work. In this case, and I must state that this is a very common occurrence, noone is happy and everyone points toward the teacher.

So that we are clear. In my four years of college that were to prepare me for teaching, I had ONE class on teaching special education kids. I had exactly zero training on IEPs, 504s, or RTI while in college, but when I was thrown into the classroom mid-year, I was expected to know and follow all the federal, state, and local laws/regulations pertaining to these.

I advocate for my students. Most of my students are from single-parent, broken homes where poverty is common. I do my best for all and it hurts to have a student who can't keep up in the classroom. I go the extra mile for these kids and my promise to every student I teach is that, "You will never fail my class as long as you give me your best." I try to maintain contact with the parent(s), and always encourage the students who need it.



I do not remember who said that education should also advocate for the B/C type student as well.

If the communist countries got any thing right, it was their educational system. High school in the USSR was either Professional or Technical. America has too long placed an emphasis on going to college and getting a 4 year degree is the only the way to be successful.
 

Padreruf

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I am a teacher (12 years). I am a from a family that has been in education since my Great-Grandfather became a teacher many moons ago.

AlabamaMike the principal is correct in everything he said. The money is there in a sense, but not always available or used (by the student...I had a legally blind student who has lots of expensive equipment provided to him but does not use it for example). IEPs are a constant in my line of work and if not followed, the threat of a lawsuit is soon to follow.

There are, in my opinion, two major problems with IEPs.

1. They all say the same thing and are written from a cookie-cutter template. Almost all of them give the student extended time for assignments and tests. Preferential seating. Guided notes. My point is that there is no INDIVIDUAL in the IEP.

2. Too many parents keep searching for the right doctor who will give them the right diagnosis so that they can get their child an IEP. And if they can't get an IEP, they go for an 504 to get the same things.

So the debate over inclusion boils down to this one basic premise. Should Little Johnny, who has ADHD, be able to attend class with his peers? The simple answer is yes. BUT what happens on the days the he does not have his medication and he is bouncing off the walls. Should his right to attend class with his peers outweigh the rights of the other students? This is a very slippery slope and though many of you have simple solutions already forming in your mind, I assure you that none of them will work. In this case, and I must state that this is a very common occurrence, noone is happy and everyone points toward the teacher.

So that we are clear. In my four years of college that were to prepare me for teaching, I had ONE class on teaching special education kids. I had exactly zero training on IEPs, 504s, or RTI while in college, but when I was thrown into the classroom mid-year, I was expected to know and follow all the federal, state, and local laws/regulations pertaining to these.

I advocate for my students. Most of my students are from single-parent, broken homes where poverty is common. I do my best for all and it hurts to have a student who can't keep up in the classroom. I go the extra mile for these kids and my promise to every student I teach is that, "You will never fail my class as long as you give me your best." I try to maintain contact with the parent(s), and always encourage the students who need it.



I do not remember who said that education should also advocate for the B/C type student as well.

If the communist countries got any thing right, it was their educational system. High school in the USSR was either Professional or Technical. America has too long placed an emphasis on going to college and getting a 4 year degree is the only the way to be successful.
I have 2 sons...the oldest is highly intelligent, did well in school, and has done well in life. The younger had a fairly severe learning disability/difference, did not do well in school, but was tutored from kindergarten through college graduation. (Yes, that's right...college graduation.) He has never read an entire book...his mind does not work that way. His brain was wired for hand/eye coordination, not for reading and remembering. He is successful in life and work, and continues to amaze us all with his "intuitive" ability.

My point is this: each child has their own strengths and you have to get to know them so as to help them develop. Even though we entered this process totally ignorant, we worked really, really hard to understand and help him. We studied the latest in "brain" technology and worked with school counselors to understand how his brain worked -- a kinesthetic learner -- and how he could then best be taught. My wife tutored him every school night -- and he had great tutors at school. Clemson has an incredible program for athletes and he excelled in it.

We had to fight the "system" many times as they did not know what to do with a child from a stable, 2 parent home who had these type of LD's. We had teachers who helped us write proper IEP's so he could get the help he needed -- such as books on "tape" so he could listen rather than read. The alterations to testing methodology are key -- you want to test their knowledge for the test, not the testing style. When tested properly his scores generally went from high 60's to mid 80's as a rule.

We also had to work hard to keep his self-esteem up high enough to keep him working. Can you imagine having to do everyday that which is most difficult for you? He learned perseverance -- both in school and on the golf course -- and that has served him well in life.

Success looks different for different persons -- keep working and keep loving them. As parents you can play the key role in your child's success. Ours was a "learn as you go" experience...we had a lot of wonderful teachers and counselors who helped us immensely. Being in a school district next to Clemson really helped us...a lot of resources.
 

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