Sen Elizabeth Warren introduces bill to eliminate college loan debt - Page 5
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  1. #53
    BamaNation Hall of Fame DzynKingRTR's Avatar
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    Re: Sen Elizabeth Warren introduces bill to eliminate college loan debt

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamabuzzard View Post
    Good question and good luck getting more than three people to decide on the same criteria as to what constitutes a "real" major. If there ever is a true discussion on reform and laying out criteria for government funded loans for higher education. Then seeking a solution where everyone gets what they want has to be off the table or nothing will ever get accomplished. The line would have to be drawn somewhere. Earle brings up a good point. Those who pursue degrees in philosophy and English, would we give them an exemption? Though the job market for these type degrees aren't in high demand. Do they get left out in the cold? You could say the same thing for the arts and as we've discussed earlier, music. It's why discussion needs to be had. Broad ideas always sound good from 50,000 foot high. The details is where it gets messy.
    2008-2012, the architecture, construction, engineering wasn't in high demand. Although professors at my alma mater were lying to students in architecture and telling them everything was awesome then I said stuff and a bunch dropped out.

    If we only use "high demand" as a criteria, this rules out everything but doctor and lawyers.
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  2. #54
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 92tide's Avatar
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    Re: Sen Elizabeth Warren introduces bill to eliminate college loan debt

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamabuzzard View Post
    The demand in the open market is minimal and for every person who finds a good paying job as an interior designer. There's an even larger number who cannot find gainful employment in the field.
    is this based on actual employment data?
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  3. #55
    FB Moderator Bamabuzzard's Avatar
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    Re: Sen Elizabeth Warren introduces bill to eliminate college loan debt

    Quote Originally Posted by DzynKingRTR View Post
    2008-2012, the architecture, construction, engineering wasn't in high demand. Although professors at my alma mater were lying to students in architecture and telling them everything was awesome then I said stuff and a bunch dropped out.

    If we only use "high demand" as a criteria, this rules out everything but doctor and lawyers.
    Then what criteria do you suggest using, if any?
    Last edited by Bamabuzzard; July 25th, 2019 at 01:47 PM.
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  4. #56
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    Re: Sen Elizabeth Warren introduces bill to eliminate college loan debt

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamabuzzard View Post
    Then what criteria do you suggest using, if any?
    I think that's the problem here. There isn't a criteria that can be easily applied.

  5. #57
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    Re: Sen Elizabeth Warren introduces bill to eliminate college loan debt

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamabuzzard View Post
    Then what criteria do you suggest using, if any?
    First you must have a clearly defined major. No general studies.
    No Business majors allowed unless you have a job lined up. Companies hire high schoolers all the time as interns. I know 3 people with "Business" degrees and they have had a dozen jobs combined and cannot figure out why they are not a CEO yet.
    If you want to get a degree in math, english, biology, etc. you better be an education major too. You are going to be a teacher.
    If it does not have an actual job associated with it then it does not merit funding. An example would be Gender Studies.
    Most majors that are just research shouldn't count at all. If I can read a few books and gain enough knowledge to talk to you about your "major" it doesn't count.
    Every university needs to do away with the BS classes. They are just filler and not needed in any way. Did I really need to take 2 Literature classes? Did I really need 3 science classes? Did I really need to take a class called STS (Science technology and Society)? All of these were just ways to get more money.

    I probably could have only done 3 years of college and then worked for architects and been just as knowledgeable as I am right now.
    Last edited by DzynKingRTR; July 25th, 2019 at 02:30 PM.
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  6. #58
    Senior Administrator TIDE-HSV's Avatar
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    Re: Sen Elizabeth Warren introduces bill to eliminate college loan debt

    Quote Originally Posted by 4Q Basket Case View Post
    I'm sorry, jt. I have to respectfully disagree.

    If we forgive student debt because we want to allow the debtors to find other uses for the cash that currently goes to student loan debt service, we'd forgive credit card debt as well. Actually, we'd forgive any debt that financed something that is no longer of any value. After all, if nobody had to make debt service on credit cards, or on a car or house that was no longer worth what was borrowed, they could use the freed up cash to buy stuff to keep the economy humming.

    Regarding reduction or forgiveness of interest, so long as the US Government is the lender, I'm kind of ambivalent about it. It just doesn't help all that much. If I have $50K in student debt, and am paying at 5% or 7% -- let's call it 6% for purposes of this example -- over 120 easy monthly payments, that's $555 a month. If we cut the interest rate in half, the payment is reduced only to $483 -- almost 90% of the originally-contracted amount. Even if we reduce the interest rate to 0%, the payment is still $417, or about 75% of the original contract.

    (BTW -- I'll digress for a tangential note. For anybody who thinks that a 6-7% interest rate on student debt is outrageous, try this: Go to a bank and ask for a 10-year unsecured installment loan to pay for something that is both intangible and has no value to anybody other than the prospective borrower. And that assumes that it does in fact have ongoing value to the borrower. Tell the bank that you have no income or job, but will in a few years. If you can get the loan at all, it's going to be a lot more expensive than that. The comparison to a first mortgage loan financing an owner-occupied residence is not even apples to oranges. It's apples to car tires.)

    Back to the original topic of forgiving student loans: Not all student loans are made by the government. Some are made by banks or other lenders, guaranteed by the government. Others are made by banks and other lenders with no governmental backing of any kind. Should those be forgiven?

    Think carefully before you answer. If you think they should, you just cost a lot of people a lot of money. Either the taxpayers paying off the banks (in which case we're back to why it's a taxpayer issue), or the banks themselves. If your reaction is that the suits deserve it, you need to re-think. The suits that so many people love to hate won't be affected at all....the shareholders will. And if you think you don't have any skin in that game, you probably need to take a look at what your 401k, IRA and pension fund are invested in. It is close to certain that there are lots of bank stocks in those portfolios. If you or your pension fund have an S&P 500 or Russell 2000 Index fund, it goes from close to certain to a 100% lock.

    And we don't even touch on the effect on credit going forward. As in, if a bank can have assets or earnings wiped out by the stroke of a governmental pen, why should they ever lend a dime to anybody again? For that matter, what would we be saying about the enforceability of contracts, the very foundation of any capitalistic economy? And what would separate us from third world countries that nationalize industries?

    This is an idea that has lots of populist appeal. But the slope is incredibly slippery, the unintended consequences are countless, and while I'm sorry for anybody who has a failed investment (believe me, I have my own list of those), I still don't see where the problem belongs to anybody but the borrower.
    You forgot one important factor on student loans - a borrower can't bankrupt out of them. That's true of every other type loan you named. Also, we're ignoring the factor behind the ballooning loans, the obscene escalation of college costs. As I've said over and over, this country needs to be investing in vocational education, anyway...
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  7. #59
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    Re: Sen Elizabeth Warren introduces bill to eliminate college loan debt

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    As I've said over and over, this country needs to be investing in vocational education, anyway...
    Personally, I really enjoy the idea that we are all going to have to turn into Farmers eventually.

    Automated jobs + push for locally sourced foods and sustainable farming methods(both of which require more laborers than we currently have) = we should all just be farmers again.

  8. #60
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    Re: Sen Elizabeth Warren introduces bill to eliminate college loan debt

    Quote Originally Posted by 92tide View Post
    is this based on actual employment data?
    Nope. But those charged with making criteria for degree/careers approved for government loans will definitely need this information in hand if presence in the job market is one of the criteria. I probably should have used a more extreme example, like underwater basket weaving. But whether it's interior design/decorating or whatever. If we're going to limit government student loans to other than what's available now. There's more than likely going to be degrees students have become accustomed to being able to borrow money for, no longer being eligible for those funds. Which degrees may end up on the chopping block is definitely a good discussion.

    I don't believe someone shouldn't have student loans available to them for anything they want to pursue. If they can find a source (private loan company) willing to lend them the money at terms the student is willing to agree to. Then by all means, go for it. But when it comes to government money/taxpayer dollars being used, I think there needs to be a lot more scrutiny applied. The ability to payback the loan with the skills and/or degree earned from the loan definitely should be taken into consideration. Should it be the be all end all? I don't know. But it definitely needs to be a part of the discussion.
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  9. #61
    FB Moderator Bamabuzzard's Avatar
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    Re: Sen Elizabeth Warren introduces bill to eliminate college loan debt

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    You forgot one important factor on student loans - a borrower can't bankrupt out of them. That's true of every other type loan you named. Also, we're ignoring the factor behind the ballooning loans, the obscene escalation of college costs. As I've said over and over, this country needs to be investing in vocational education, anyway...
    Completely agree here Earle, and the college's have taken full advantage of our society (from the parents all the way to the classrooms of K-12) force feeding kids "You have to go to college" while condescendingly looking down our noses at vocational skills. We (whether intentional or unintentional) have cast social shame on jobs like mechanics, plumbers, HVAC workers, welders, electricians etc. *I guess because they aren't sophisticated enough to bring home to mama and daddy, heck, I don't know. They don't sound as "cool" at the country club pool and spa while sipping on our mimosa's.


    *I think I just blamed spoiled white women for our student loan problems. Yeah, I think I just did.*
    Last edited by Bamabuzzard; July 25th, 2019 at 02:51 PM.
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  10. #62
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    Re: Sen Elizabeth Warren introduces bill to eliminate college loan debt

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    You forgot one important factor on student loans - a borrower can't bankrupt out of them. That's true of every other type loan you named. Also, we're ignoring the factor behind the ballooning loans, the obscene escalation of college costs. As I've said over and over, this country needs to be investing in vocational education, anyway...
    I agree regarding vocational schools.

    And I was aware of student loans being non-dischargeable in bankruptcy. Same with income tax liability. There may be some others I’m not aware of.

    But nobody’s advocating that tax liability be forgiven, so I didn’t see non-dischargability as relevant to the question of whether student loans should be forgiven.

    It does bring up an interesting question, though. Usually, forgiveness of debt constitutes taxable income in the amount of the forgiveness. Is Warren also advocating not only that the student debt be erased, but the resulting income be non-taxable as well?
    You can't reason a man out of a position he didn't reason himself into.

  11. #63
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Bamaro's Avatar
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    Re: Sen Elizabeth Warren introduces bill to eliminate college loan debt

    An Associate degree followed by a Bachelors degree from a general instate public university is affordable to nearly everyone, loans and all, if your degree is 'marketable'.

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    Re: Sen Elizabeth Warren introduces bill to eliminate college loan debt

    Here's my perspective as a Ph.D-holding college professor in a large public university system...

    Why are students going to mediocre schools paying ridiculous tuition/room/board and getting <$40k / year jobs? THIS is the major problem. Unneeded degrees in esoteric stupid subjects that pay nothing and are less than worthless OR high-cost tuition at less than desirable colleges (or even worse, a combo of both).

    Couple of ways to mitigate this:

    1) Go to a low-cost undergrad: My school's flat-rate tuition is $2000 for 15+ hours. Do that 9X (about what it would take to graduate 4.5 years) and your out of pocket expense is about $20k for tuition. In this market I could make $20K over 4.5 years sitting on my couch and eating Doritos all day.

    and/or

    2) Actually achieve something in HS so your school is paid for.

    The fact that people WHO WERE NOT FORCED TO TAKE OUT A LOAN OTHER THAN BY THEIR OWN DOING want their loan paid back by me is so offensive to my senses that I'm going to stop typing now.

  13. #65
    BamaNation Hall of Fame Tidewater's Avatar
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    Re: Sen Elizabeth Warren introduces bill to eliminate college loan debt

    Quote Originally Posted by TIDE-HSV View Post
    You forgot one important factor on student loans - a borrower can't bankrupt out of them. That's true of every other type loan you named. Also, we're ignoring the factor behind the ballooning loans, the obscene escalation of college costs.
    I'm not exactly sure what is behind this. Reduced state allocations to public universities is part. There are more non-teachers than teachers at American colleges and universities. I went to a conference at James Madison University last year and ate in the dining facility. It was like a resort. I ate in Paty Hall while at Alabama, and it fed you, but it was not luxurious. JMU's dinig hall was completely over the top. They have to be, though, because if they of
    Darn young people!fered Paty Hall, applicants would go elsewhere.
    As I've said over and over, this country needs to be investing in vocational education, anyway...
    Agreed. I spoke with a master welder last year. His company cannot find young people who will show up at the right place, at the right time, with the right clothes on, and sober. And they are offering pretty good money.

    Those darn young people!

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