Notre Dame is a product of media hype - Page 5
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  1. #53
    BamaNation Hall of Fame B1GTide's Avatar
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    Re: Notre Dame is a product

    Quote Originally Posted by selmaborntidefan View Post
    By the same token, the Braves' fans were downright embarrassing that day with the littering of the field,
    I thought that was awesome! And it was one of the worst calls in MLB playoff history, judgement call or not.

  2. #54
    BamaNation Hall of Fame selmaborntidefan's Avatar
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    Re: Notre Dame is a product

    Quote Originally Posted by B1GTide View Post
    I thought that was awesome! And it was one of the worst calls in MLB playoff history, judgement call or not.
    As a Braves fan, I find this deeply embarrassing that they did that regardless.

    I saw it and was shocked, but I can't say it was a case of "got the rule wrong."
    My New Year's resolution for 2019 is this year I'm not going to drink anymore. I'm not going to drink any less, either.

    I was married for 25 years, but if I'd killed her on the honeymoon, I'd have been out in less than 20.

    Butch Jones has richly earned his title, The Archbishop of Talentbury

    After reading all the horrible things drinking will do to you....I gave up reading.

  3. #55
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    Re: Notre Dame is a product

    Quote Originally Posted by selmaborntidefan View Post
    As a Braves fan, I find this deeply embarrassing that they did that regardless.

    I saw it and was shocked, but I can't say it was a case of "got the rule wrong."
    I would not have thrown things on the field as I would have worried that I might hurt someone, but I was pretty angry at the call. I can see how fans who had been drinking beer for 3-4 hours could have shown worse judgement. I remember thinking that the Braves deserved the hideous call given their poor play, but I was still angry. Braves fans should be used to angry feelings at the end of the MLB playoffs, right?

    And don't even get me started on the Eric Gregg strike zone in the 1997 NLCS. I still feel like punching someone when I think about that game.

  4. #56
    BamaNation Hall of Fame selmaborntidefan's Avatar
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    Re: Notre Dame is a product

    Quote Originally Posted by B1GTide View Post
    I would not have thrown things on the field as I would have worried that I might hurt someone, but I was pretty angry at the call. I can see how fans who had been drinking beer for 3-4 hours could have shown worse judgement. I remember thinking that the Braves deserved the hideous call given their poor play, but I was still angry. Braves fans should be used to angry feelings at the end of the MLB playoffs, right?

    And don't even get me started on the Eric Gregg strike zone in the 1997 NLCS. I still feel like punching someone when I think about that game.

    Ya know, if you gave me the strike zone Livan Hernandez got that day, I'd still own the record for Ks in a playoff game.

    That was despicable beyond words.
    My New Year's resolution for 2019 is this year I'm not going to drink anymore. I'm not going to drink any less, either.

    I was married for 25 years, but if I'd killed her on the honeymoon, I'd have been out in less than 20.

    Butch Jones has richly earned his title, The Archbishop of Talentbury

    After reading all the horrible things drinking will do to you....I gave up reading.

  5. #57
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 81usaf92's Avatar
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    Re: Notre Dame is a product

    Quote Originally Posted by selmaborntidefan View Post
    Let's ask ourselves, though......how many "real" chokes did the Braves actually have?


    1991 - no
    1992 - no, Toronto was the better team
    1993 - yes (Philly was 70-92 in 1992 and the only difference in 93 was they added Scott Rolen; in 94, they had a losing record with mostly the same team)
    1996 - maybe (but given what happened next, this will not be recalled as a choke but as the beginning of the late 90s Yankee dynasty)
    1997 - no (Florida went 8-4 against Atlanta and won 92 games, 2nd in the NL)
    1998 - maybe (San Diego won 98 games that year and basically split the season with the Braves, 4-5....and given what Bochy later did with SF......)
    1999 - no
    2000 - lost to a team with the same record that was 4-3 against the Braves in the season)
    2001 - no
    2002 - yes
    2003 - yes
    2004 - maybe
    2005 - yes to Houston, but they would not have won the World Series

    So in a 14-year span, I'm willing to concede that FOUR times they failed to advance were flat out chokes while 3 more were debatable.
    I think the mere fact they're debatable disqualifies them as chokes.


    On the flip side....

    1) Cox DID manage to become the first manager to blow a 3-1 series lead in the LCS in 1985 with Toronto (he came within a Francisco Cabrera hit of repeating this in the NL)

    2) The Braves choked in 2011 when Cox was nowhere to be seen and looked awful last year in the playoffs, too.


    Charlie Leibrandt might be the most hard luck post-season pitcher in history.

    1979 LCS
    not even yet a rookie with the Reds, he comes into a must win game trailing, 6-0. He balks, sending Willie Stargell to 3rd, but gets out of the inning.

    1984 LCS
    In another must win with KC, Charlie pitches phenomenally, giving up only 3 hits.....and losing, 1-0 on a 2nd inning manufactured run

    1985 LCS
    starts game one, gets shelled for 5 runs in the 2nd inning and KC loses
    starts game four - pitches great into the 9th with a 1-0 lead, gives up a walk and double, Quiz comes in, and Leibrandt loses when Quiz fails
    WINS game seven - he's only in there because KC's best pitcher, Saberhagen, takes a line drive off his pitching hand


    1985 World Series
    game 2 - leads 2-0 entering the ninth with a five-hitter....gives up four runs and loses
    game 6 - gives up 4 hits, leaves trailing, 1-0, and then gets a no decision thanks in large part to Don Denkinger

    1991 NLCS
    game 4 - staked to a 2-0 lead in the first, gives them back thanks in large part to Charlie's failure to back up third on an overthrow; no decision, Braves lose, 3-2

    1991 World Series
    game 1- gives up 4 runs in 4 innings and gets the loss
    game 6 - Puckett slams Leibrandt's fourth pitch for a game-winning HR

    1992
    game 5 - relieves Avery down, 5-0, and gives up a run in 1.2 innings, relieved by the forgettable Marvin Freeman with two men on
    game 6 - pitches great after the Braves are down, 8-0, for three relief innings

    1992 World Series
    game 6 - finally makes an appearance and loses the damned ballgame

    If you look over these, it didn't matter whether Charlie pitched great or awful.....he almost always was on the wrong side at the end.
    1996 was probably the only World Series choke the Braves actually have. Taking the 1st 2 games in New York, and having a total 8th inning collapse in Game 4 constitutes as a choke when you consider that was the best Braves team of all time playing against a Yankees team that possibly isn't in the top 10 Yankees team. Atlanta far and away was the better team. 1999 New York was, but 1996 Atlanta was. But the most painful world series is still 1991.

    But I think people try their best to lump the Braves of the 90's in with Georgia, the Bills, and Peyton Manning led teams. But Atlanta choked fewer times than people really think
    "Aut viam inveniam aut faciam."

    Hannibal

  6. #58
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    Re: Notre Dame is a product

    Quote Originally Posted by B1GTide View Post
    I would not have thrown things on the field as I would have worried that I might hurt someone, but I was pretty angry at the call. I can see how fans who had been drinking beer for 3-4 hours could have shown worse judgement. I remember thinking that the Braves deserved the hideous call given their poor play, but I was still angry. Braves fans should be used to angry feelings at the end of the MLB playoffs, right?

    And don't even get me started on the Eric Gregg strike zone in the 1997 NLCS. I still feel like punching someone when I think about that game.
    I was angry about that call for 2 reasons. 1) that was Chipper's last game and 2) It was pretty much a guarenteed NLCS berth because Washington had handcuffed Strasburg. I have hated the Cardinals pretty much ever since, and plus one of my friends was a obnoxious Cards fan that wouldnt let their supremacy over us go. So I have found myself being a temporary Giants and Red Sox fan when the time calls for it.

    But that was a bull crap call. I dont know if we wouldve won, but it pretty much ended any chance of it. A Left field umpire has no buisness calling an infield fly call when you have 3 infield umpires.
    "Aut viam inveniam aut faciam."

    Hannibal

  7. #59
    BamaNation Hall of Fame selmaborntidefan's Avatar
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    Re: Notre Dame is a product

    Quote Originally Posted by 81usaf92 View Post
    1996 was probably the only World Series choke the Braves actually have. Taking the 1st 2 games in New York, and having a total 8th inning collapse in Game 4 constitutes as a choke when you consider that was the best Braves team of all time playing against a Yankees team that possibly isn't in the top 10 Yankees team. Atlanta far and away was the better team. 1999 New York was, but 1996 Atlanta was. But the most painful world series is still 1991.

    But I think people try their best to lump the Braves of the 90's in with Georgia, the Bills, and Peyton Manning led teams. But Atlanta choked fewer times than people really think
    I can buy this.

    It's funny how things change. For years all that anxiety.

    And then on the Tuesday of game 3, my ex asks me about the upcoming weekend and plans, and I actually say, "Well, the World Series will probably be over by then"..........and then we lost the damned thing that night.

    The Braves are to blame for the Yankee dynasty. If we'd just beaten them, Stein would have fired Torre, and there would have been no Yankee dynasty.
    My New Year's resolution for 2019 is this year I'm not going to drink anymore. I'm not going to drink any less, either.

    I was married for 25 years, but if I'd killed her on the honeymoon, I'd have been out in less than 20.

    Butch Jones has richly earned his title, The Archbishop of Talentbury

    After reading all the horrible things drinking will do to you....I gave up reading.

  8. #60
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 81usaf92's Avatar
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    Re: Notre Dame is a product

    Quote Originally Posted by selmaborntidefan View Post

    The Braves are to blame for the Yankee dynasty. If we'd just beaten them, Stein would have fired Torre, and there would have been no Yankee dynasty.
    I think the Yankees in 1996 were the Braves of 1992... a team destined for WS runs but missing that one piece. In 1998 they got it, but in 1996 they were an unfinished product. Point is that if that debacle in the 8th in game 4 doesn't happen, then there is noway they are beating Atlanta 3 straight when Atlanta can save Smotlz and Maddux for New York.
    "Aut viam inveniam aut faciam."

    Hannibal

  9. #61
    BamaNation Hall of Fame selmaborntidefan's Avatar
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    Re: Notre Dame is a product

    Quote Originally Posted by 81usaf92 View Post
    I think the Yankees in 1996 were the Braves of 1992... a team destined for WS runs but missing that one piece. In 1998 they got it, but in 1996 they were an unfinished product. Point is that if that debacle in the 8th in game 4 doesn't happen, then there is noway they are beating Atlanta 3 straight when Atlanta can save Smotlz and Maddux for New York.
    But that whole thing was stupid.

    Blowing a 6-0 lead in game 4.

    Losing game 5 on an error by the best CF in baseball and losing, 1-0.


    Just stunning.


    Think about this: if you had told me on October 22, 1996 that the Braves would not win another World Series GAME for at least 23 years, I'd have thought you were out of your mind. Keep in mind it was only 25 years from the franchise shift to the 1991 World Series.

    That's how long it has been.
    My New Year's resolution for 2019 is this year I'm not going to drink anymore. I'm not going to drink any less, either.

    I was married for 25 years, but if I'd killed her on the honeymoon, I'd have been out in less than 20.

    Butch Jones has richly earned his title, The Archbishop of Talentbury

    After reading all the horrible things drinking will do to you....I gave up reading.

  10. #62
    BamaNation All-American ALA2262's Avatar
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    Re: Notre Dame is a product

    Quote Originally Posted by selmaborntidefan View Post
    Actually, he wasn't camped, he was still pursuing the ball and it landed behind any place where he "camped."




    Camping isn't even the issue here (nor was he camped - he was retreating and never got under it).

    What's funny is that your verbiage is precisely why Ron Darling was arguing in favor of the Braves.

    The call is DEFENSIBLE in that it was the ump's judgment that the shortstop could have caught it with "routine" effort.
    It was defensible in that it was a judgment call.

    By the same token, the Braves' fans were downright embarrassing that day with the littering of the field, and the Braves lost because they made three errors, not because of the infield fly.
    Very clear at 3:00 of this video that the shortstop had stopped retreating and was facing home plate (camped under the ball) when he gave way to the left fielder. Very clear also that the umpire did not give the infield fly out signal until that moment.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-6ujbLknUc

  11. #63
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 81usaf92's Avatar
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    Re: Notre Dame is a product

    Quote Originally Posted by selmaborntidefan View Post
    But that whole thing was stupid.

    Blowing a 6-0 lead in game 4.

    Losing game 5 on an error by the best CF in baseball and losing, 1-0.


    Just stunning.


    Think about this: if you had told me on October 22, 1996 that the Braves would not win another World Series GAME for at least 23 years, I'd have thought you were out of your mind. Keep in mind it was only 25 years from the franchise shift to the 1991 World Series.

    That's how long it has been.
    Most Yankee fans I know say that they knew the better team didn't win in 1996, but they feel that it makes up for Joe Torre choking away 2001 and 2003 to teams that had no business winning. I think if you are honest, no team has choked more championships away in baseball than the New York Yankees, but their pockets tend to win more championships than anyone else. Atlanta is really only looked at within a period of about 15 years, wheras the Yankees are over 100. Its like saying Oklahoma from 2000-present are the biggest chokers, but how many times has Alabama choked away a championship in that time period as well. You see one is highlighted by only championship amongst many "chokes" and a lot of championships with a lot of chokes. I would argue most Atlanta and Oklahoma so called chokes are more of a team overperforming going against a better team than choking away a championship. Alabama and the Yankees can always point to their trophy case and say "What choke?".
    "Aut viam inveniam aut faciam."

    Hannibal

  12. #64
    BamaNation Hall of Fame 81usaf92's Avatar
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    Re: Notre Dame is a product

    Quote Originally Posted by ALA2262 View Post
    Very clear at 3:00 of this video that the shortstop had stopped retreating and was facing home plate (camped under the ball) when he gave way to the left fielder. Very clear also that the umpire did not give the infield fly out signal until that moment.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-6ujbLknUc
    The only thing that is clear is that an outfield umpire made a call he had no business making. Don't you find it kinda funny ONLY 1 umpire has his hand raised?
    "Aut viam inveniam aut faciam."

    Hannibal

  13. #65
    BamaNation All-American ALA2262's Avatar
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    Re: Notre Dame is a product

    Quote Originally Posted by 81usaf92 View Post
    The only thing that is clear is that an outfield umpire made a call he had no business making. Don't you find it kinda funny ONLY 1 umpire has his hand raised?
    Only thing!? It's the only thing you wish to see. You nor I know whether he was or was not responsible for the call because neither you nor I know the mechanics of a six man umpiring crew. You keep saying he had no business making the call but you don't know that for a fact. He was the umpire closest to the play so I am inclined to believe he was responsible for the call.

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