News Article: SI's Top 10 coaches of all time

Power Eye

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selmaborntidefan; But choosing Tom Osborne over Barry Switzer in a top ten list of coaches is absurd on ALL levels. When one guy ties or exceeds the other guy in all categories and beats him 12 of 17 times said:
Osborne did win almost 100 more college games than Switzer did. Not that Switzer had a short college career, but it's Osborne's sustained success over a much longer period of time that put him ahead.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Osborne did win almost 100 more college games than Switzer did. Not that Switzer had a short college career, but it's Osborne's sustained success over a much longer period of time that put him ahead.
And that's a fair point, but that gets to the "how many more wins does a guy have to have to offset a 5-12 head-to-head record?"

Joe Paterno has about 170 more wins than Saban, too.
 

PA Tide Fan

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And that's a fair point, but that gets to the "how many more wins does a guy have to have to offset a 5-12 head-to-head record?"

Joe Paterno has about 170 more wins than Saban, too.
I think what happened here when they created the list was they disqualified any coach who's ethical conduct was questionable. That would explain why Paterno and Switzer didn't make the list. They decided that the Sandusky scandal at PSU and the cheating scandal during the Switzer years at OU were disqualifiers. Probably the Zach Smith issue at OSU will keep Meyer from ever making the list. Not that those on the list are totally clean but they are probably more clean than the ones I mention. Objectively they could all make the list but in today's politically correct society SI probably doesn't have the courage to do it.
 

selmaborntidefan

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I think what happened here when they created the list was they disqualified any coach who's ethical conduct was questionable. That would explain why Paterno and Switzer didn't make the list. They decided that the Sandusky scandal at PSU and the cheating scandal during the Switzer years at OU were disqualifiers. Probably the Zach Smith issue at OSU will keep Meyer from ever making the list. Not that those on the list are totally clean but they are probably more clean than the ones I mention. Objectively they could all make the list but in today's politically correct society SI probably doesn't have the courage to do it.
TBH with you, I wondered that in the back of my mind, but it's a dumb argument on their part to do so.

Are we going to say Barry Bonds wasn't one of the ten greatest players ever because he juiced? Lots of guys juiced, but they didn't all hit 762 home runs, either. (And doesn't the fact that he was facing juiced pitchers offset that argument at least a little bit?).


But then, well, we've got some problems here.

Bryant admitted to paying players at Texas A/M. He admitted this more than once in SI, and even said he'd been approached by folks about paying players at UA.
But nobody else was winning 323 games and six national titles and owning the SEC, either.

And Tom Osborne coached Lawrence Phillipps, for Pete's sake. I realize that's not the long-term problem of Switzer at OU, but we're not selecting saints for canonization, we're asking who was the best.



I think this notion of us as moral arbiters imposing society on sports needs to cease. The Jerry Sandusky case is the most wretched horror that has come along in the last.....forever maybe? I so enjoyed watching Penn State's defense dismantle Miami in 1987. What a game! But I cannot even watch it on You Tube without a horrible feeling of revulsion at what was going on behind closed doors.

The problem, however, is simple: Joe Paterno won those games. Period. No amount of "we don't recognize that" or "let's punish that school" or anything else changes that.


What I've begun to muse, however, is whether we don't focus too much attention on the wrong things in our assessment of greatness.


Maybe some coaches like Pat Dye, Lou Holtz, Don James, Frank Kush, Ara Parseghian.......maybe some of those guys (or some other names) should be ranked over some of the other guys who had more wins and titles but had a leg up in the first place. Nick Saban's record commends him as (probably) the greatest CFB coach of all-time, but does anyone actually think he would have won 5 or 6 national titles at Michigan State? Saban himself said he couldn't win one in Lansing, so who thinks he could have won five or six?

Maybe Bill Snyder's accomplishments at disadvantaged K-State are better IN CONTEXT than Osborne's as Nebraska.
Or maybe Bill McCartney winning one national title (and losing the other in the final game) at CU is >>>>> Osborne's or Devaney's Nebraska advantages.


I'm just saying that while winning and championships are important, I question the degree to which we arbitrarily rank or dismiss guys based solely on, "Coached for a team with huge advantages over other coaches." It's not much different from the Heisman Trophy. If Kyler Murray had the exact same stats on Iowa State last year (with their record), he's not even invited to NY. But he plays for Oklahoma, so, here's your Heisman. (And before any OU fans think I'm bashing OU or Murray, the same argument can be applied to Tua to some degree).
 

Tideflyer

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Not to start a controversy but I'm genuinely curious. What does everyone think Dabo has to do to make this list? Obviously, coach a lot more games and win more titles but how many more titles/years of winning do you all think he needs?
The first thing he has to do is stay in that clown car of a conference he`s in. That alone will get him enough total wins as well as set him up to make the playoffs. Slam dunk.
 

Al A Bama

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If we had to list the BEST university for HIRING coaches, how about the University that hired Wallace Wade, Frank Thomas, Paul W. Bryant, Gene Stallings, and Nick Saban. Has any other school had 5 coaches with NC's? Now I guess someone could criticize us for hiring the following: Ears, Curry, and DuBose. Also, thank God for Mike Denny for preparing the U of A for this.

So, we don't screw up the NEXT hire many years down the road (hopefully), do NOT hire someone like the 3 mentioned in that last sentence.
 

CoachJeff

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Osborne has a combination of longevity and a high winning %. He belongs in any top 10 discussion. He coached for a quarter century and his worst record was 9-3-1 in that span.
 

selmaborntidefan

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The first thing he has to do is stay in that clown car of a conference he`s in. That alone will get him enough total wins as well as set him up to make the playoffs. Slam dunk.
The same could be said about Alabama in the SEC in 1973-1981.
Bryant compiled a record of 53-3 in an SEC that most years had Alabama, one other contender and a bunch of teams with 3 or more losses.

He still had to win the games, though. And he still had to win on the big stage.


The problem with, "Well Dabo has it easy," is that he still has to have a good enough team to beat two powerful foes at the end of the year.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Osborne has a combination of longevity and a high winning %. He belongs in any top 10 discussion. He coached for a quarter century and his worst record was 9-3-1 in that span.
Because he didn't play anybody worth a damn most of those years.

He was 17-22 in a 20-year span against ranked teams.
That's not an all-time great.
 

Crimson1967

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If we had to list the BEST university for HIRING coaches, how about the University that hired Wallace Wade, Frank Thomas, Paul W. Bryant, Gene Stallings, and Nick Saban. Has any other school had 5 coaches with NC's? Now I guess someone could criticize us for hiring the following: Ears, Curry, and DuBose. Also, thank God for Mike Denny for preparing the U of A for this.

So, we don't screw up the NEXT hire many years down the road (hopefully), do NOT hire someone like the 3 mentioned in that last sentence.
Don’t lump Curry in with Ears and Dubose. Ears was in a class by himself in degrees of suckitude. Dubose got us in all kinds of legal and NCAA trouble.

Curry’s time wasn’t scandal free (Jelks) but he did have us ranked #1. Although beating the barn and the U would just have proven Selma’s clown theory. And it sets us on an alternate history where Saban isn’t our coach.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

BearFan

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I believe Frank Thomas was the coach that first put us on the National scene. He was CPB’s coach and had a winning percentage nearly identical to CPB. Bama would not be Bama without him.

If we had to list the BEST university for HIRING coaches, how about the University that hired Wallace Wade, Frank Thomas, Paul W. Bryant, Gene Stallings, and Nick Saban. Has any other school had 5 coaches with NC's? Now I guess someone could criticize us for hiring the following: Ears, Curry, and DuBose. Also, thank God for Mike Denny for preparing the U of A for this.

So, we don't screw up the NEXT hire many years down the road (hopefully), do NOT hire someone like the 3 mentioned in that last sentence.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Don’t lump Curry in with Ears and Dubose. Ears was in a class by himself in degrees of suckitude. Dubose got us in all kinds of legal and NCAA trouble.

Curry’s time wasn’t scandal free (Jelks) but he did have us ranked #1.
Not to be a jerk, but it was #2. However, your point still stands and wins over Auburn and Miami likely win us the 89 national title.


Although beating the barn and the U would just have proven Selma’s clown theory. And it sets us on an alternate history where Saban isn’t our coach.
The bizarre part to me is that Curry sort of set up the 1990 Tech national title team, and he recruited the freshmen that won the 92 title at Alabama.
 

81usaf92

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Osbourne is one of the most overrated "great" coaches ever. The Big 8 was 2 teams winning it all every year, until Colorado got relevant, and even that didnt matter that much. Nebraska basically used endless amounts of walkons to beat up on Missouri, Ok state, and the other small teams, but usually craped the bed when they had to play real competition. Case and point, a lot is made of Osbourne's 5-1 record vs Johnson, but exactly how many Jimmy Johnson vs Nebraska matchups were anywhere close to equal talent on both sides? Answer 1, and guess which 1 that was and the score.

Osbourne gets alot of overused credit for going for two in the 1983 Orange Bowl, and he doesn't get enough flack for the choke jobs he had. The 3* 90's championships make people forget how really just "slightly above average" he was at Nebraska. Even take a look at Those schedules in the 90's and you'll see that Nebraska should have 90% of their schedule won before the season opener every year.

I think a case CAN be made that Osbourne is a Top 10 coach, I mostly consider him at Top 15-20 coach but I can understand someone with the right metrics putting him Top 10, but in no universe is he higher than Switzer, wilkenson, , Bowden, John Mckay, Devaney, or Urban Meyer.
 
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GrayTide

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I respectfully disagree.


Third all-time winning pct and fully in the modern era (.854)
3 national titles, all won head-to-head against the other "best" team
National titles at 2 schools (very difficult)
took over a team on probation and went 54-4
Won 2 national titles in the SEC during the most dominant conference era of all-time
2-2 all-time against the greatest coach of all-time....and had to beat him on his way to 2 of his 3 national titles


Meyer's LOWEST winning pct......was not at Ohio State or Florida but in his first two years at Bowling Green.

I can get why folks might want to quibble with third all-time, but he's on the list without question.
I stand corrected, Bill. Meyer deserves to be included, but as you said maybe not at #3.
 

deliveryman35

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I cant stand Urban Meyer, but what he accomplished demands my respect. His combination of win percentage, longevity, schedule played, and number of coaching stops makes him an automatic top 5 all-time coach.
 

selmaborntidefan

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I cant stand Urban Meyer, but what he accomplished demands my respect. His combination of win percentage, longevity, schedule played, and number of coaching stops makes him an automatic top 5 all-time coach.
You pretty much summarized my thoughts on it right there.
 

selmaborntidefan

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My dyslexia got me again.

Osborne was 22-17, NOT 17-22 as I said above.

That's still not really a championship level coach for those two decades, though.

81 is correct and reflects my own thoughts. Osborne's collection of titles at the end of his career papered over perception. The SI Almanac reviewing 1995 (remember, it comes out in November) summarized Nebraska going into 1994 as being viewed by everyone as "cornfed bullies that could blow out Iowa State but never really come through in a big game." The 1994 Orange Bowl (that they lost to FSU - and got robbed, quite frankly) began the shifting of perceptions, and then Osborne didn't lose again until the 1996 Ariz St game.

To echo 81, quite frankly, Dr Tom IS a legit Top 20 coach of all-time. He's probably slightly below the cusp of the Top Ten (again - assuming we are using "games won" and "titles won" as the prime criteria). But keeping him above Barry Switzer, who beat him like a drum, is ludicrous.
 

81usaf92

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My dyslexia got me again.

Osborne was 22-17, NOT 17-22 as I said above.

That's still not really a championship level coach for those two decades, though.

81 is correct and reflects my own thoughts. Osborne's collection of titles at the end of his career papered over perception. The SI Almanac reviewing 1995 (remember, it comes out in November) summarized Nebraska going into 1994 as being viewed by everyone as "cornfed bullies that could blow out Iowa State but never really come through in a big game." The 1994 Orange Bowl (that they lost to FSU - and got robbed, quite frankly) began the shifting of perceptions, and then Osborne didn't lose again until the 1996 Ariz St game.

To echo 81, quite frankly, Dr Tom IS a legit Top 20 coach of all-time. He's probably slightly below the cusp of the Top Ten (again - assuming we are using "games won" and "titles won" as the prime criteria). But keeping him above Barry Switzer, who beat him like a drum, is ludicrous.
The thing is, Im not sure Osborne is the best Nebraska head coach of all time. Devaney pretty much made Nebraska a credible football team from the ground up. There was progression towards the title, and Devaney faced way stiffer competition than Osbourne ever did. Osbourne was the guy that didnt sink the ship. This feels less like a Jimmie Johnson- Tom Landry argument and more like a Bill Cowher- Chuck Noll argument. The former there is an argument of who was actually better, the latter there is not one.
As dumb as it sounds Steve Spurrier probably had a far more impressive career than Osbourne even with that 1995 matchup in the record books. Spurrier invented Florida and South Carolina, Osbourne just didn't sink the ship that Devaney made.

Osborne's legacy is defined by the 3* championships in the 90's and the 1984 Orange Bowl decision. But noone will ever bring up the 1979 Orange Bowl,1981 Orange Bowl, 1989 Orange Bowl, and the countless blunders that costed him more titles. Really him and Fulmer have something in common, and that it was that the elevation of their program was due to a key rival being down. Name the 3 Oklahoma coaches in 94,95, and 97 and see if they were worthy of parking on the same row as Switzer at Wal Mart.

Im not saying Osbourne wasn't a great coach, but a deeper look at statistics, schedule, and games against elite coaches is needed before you put him in the top 10 of all time.
 

selmaborntidefan

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The thing is, Im not sure Osborne is the best Nebraska head coach of all time. Devaney pretty much made Nebraska a credible football team from the ground up. There was progression towards the title, and Devaney faced way stiffer competition than Osbourne ever did. Osbourne was the guy that didnt sink the ship.
If you weren't around in the 60s, Bob Devaney is all but forgotten. But your points are some of the same ones I have made.

Incidentally, Devaney was also the AD during Osborne's first 20 seasons as head coach. Of course, to what degree Devaney ran the program, who knows?



Lest I be accused of unfairly disparaging Osborne, he DOES deserve immense credit for keeping the program competitive at a high level. He wasn't Phil Bengston, Ray Perkins, Ray Handley, or Gary Moeller.....he's more in the George Seifert category.


This feels less like a Jimmie Johnson- Tom Landry argument and more like a Bill Cowher- Chuck Noll argument. The former there is an argument of who was actually better, the latter there is not one.
As dumb as it sounds Steve Spurrier probably had a far more impressive career than Osbourne even with that 1995 matchup in the record books. Spurrier invented Florida and South Carolina, Osbourne just didn't sink the ship that Devaney made.

Osborne's legacy is defined by the 3* championships in the 90's and the 1984 Orange Bowl decision. But noone will ever bring up the 1979 Orange Bowl,1981 Orange Bowl, 1989 Orange Bowl, and the countless blunders that costed him more titles. Really him and Fulmer have something in common, and that it was that the elevation of their program was due to a key rival being down. Name the 3 Oklahoma coaches in 94,95, and 97 and see if they were worthy of parking on the same row as Switzer at Wal Mart.

Im not saying Osbourne wasn't a great coach, but a deeper look at statistics, schedule, and games against elite coaches is needed before you put him in the top 10 of all time.

It's funny how the reflection of Osborne as a coach is that one blowout against Florida.

He deserves credit for it, but I think there's too much emphasis on one game there.
 

81usaf92

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Lest I be accused of unfairly disparaging Osborne, he DOES deserve immense credit for keeping the program competitive at a high level.



.
Yes, but how much is always the debate. I think many folks have just subscribed to the 3 in 4 years, wouldn't take the tie in 83, and the 95 Nebraska team was the greatest team in my lifetime, and just gave him a spot in the top 10. When I lived in Nebraska, there were a lot of young and middle aged Husker fans saying he was the greatest of all time because he did what Bear, Switzer, and Wilkenson couldn't do and wine 3 out of 4. But I met a lot of older Husker fans say he was the biggest underachiever of all time because of the ones he didn't win. So I think somewhere in the middle is where Osbourne fits.

But coaches I know are higher than Osborne (no particular order):

Saban
Bear
Wilkinson
Meyer
Switzer
Mckay
Bowden

Coaches that probably are higher:

Knute
Hayes

Coaches that could be considered higher:

Holtz
Spurrier
 

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