Fair Pay to Play Act Signed into Law in CA - Page 36
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  1. #456
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    Re: Fair Pay to Play Act Signed into Law in CA

    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonaudio View Post
    I think some are confusing paying players (salary) vs allowing them to make some money off of their fame. Considering how much money the schools and medaia makes off these guys, allowing those that can command it a slice of the pie is nothing. It's NOT a salary, it's most certainly about being 'fair'.

    Without question, the school is the vehicle that allows them the fame they have, but without these guys, especially the stars, schools like Alabama would have a far smaller operating budget.

    So ultimately what we're saying is that it's still an amateur sport, but the NCAA will no longer allow EVERYONE but the player to make money off his likeness. Not even sure how that's debatable. Sure, there will be ways that people will try to manipulate the system, just as they do now - but this isn't about removing amateurism from the sport, it's about righting a wrong that's existed for a LONG time.

    I mean, think if it this way - you can side with the players or the NCAA - and the NCAA gets it wrong >90% of the time...
    I thought that schools had stopped that. If not, why don't they cease from using any specific player's likeness? Would that satisfy most?

  2. #457
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    Re: Fair Pay to Play Act Signed into Law in CA

    Quote Originally Posted by BamaDMD View Post
    Ok, I am going to ask you what I asked him and he wouldn't answer. If it is "wrong" to play players without paying them due to they may sustain injuries and affect their future, then is it wrong to play high school students, for the very same reason, without pay. They being groomed and sought out for their potential as early as 8th grade from schools all over the country.
    If a high school player can get paid endorsements then let them get paid.

    And I didnít say it was wrong not to pay them because they might get injured, Iím saying itís wrong not to allow them to make money in a free market.

    Are you happy now?
    Last edited by davefrat; October 10th, 2019 at 05:57 PM.

  3. #458
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    Re: Fair Pay to Play Act Signed into Law in CA

    Quote Originally Posted by CajunCrimson View Post
    I guess I'm a stickler for the rules. These back and forths that we have all been a part of the same arguments people have had for ages:

    People are smoking pot, so we might as well legalize it, so we can control it
    People are gambling, so we might as well legalize it, so we can control it
    People are paying for sex, so we might as well legalize it, so we can control it

    To me, it's all the same argument. We aren't willing to fix it, so just change the rules so it won't be cheating/illegal anymore.

    But, if we did fix it -- take the cheating out of the game. Got serious about banning schools, players, and coaches who cheat -- most of this would go away......

    Let kids go pro out of HS.....

    But, let college kids be students -- and represent..........

    I guess I'm "old school" -- but it has nothing to do with nobility (I got the sarcasm) -- it has to do with there being rules....and I haven't been shown why we have to change them that makes sense to me.

    So, to me, either create something new -- so they can go and prosper in a professional landscape....

    And let College go back to kids wearing a jersey and getting free college. And let's punish those that cheat with punishments to truly discourage it from happening.
    Prohibition always works. Using maximum force to enforce prohibition always works better. That's why our society has, for years, been without pot, illegal gambling, and prostitution.

    That's all I'll say about those things on the football board. Feel free to hit me up in NS on them.

    Why do we want to constrain these athletes in their ability to make money?

    I agree with letting kids go pro out of high school.

    The nobility bit wasn't sarcasm - it was the origin of the rise of amateurism in sports. Since this is closely related to socioeconomic status I'm not going down that rabbit hole other than to acknowledge it.

    CA got this right when he said that some seemed confused in believing that schools would be paying players. That's not the case other than stipends.

    I do admit that there are glaring problems with this idea. These problems range from school image to bidding wars. There has to be some sensible regulation and the schools must be able to reject some endorsements based on moral turpitude or inappropriateness. Those things, to me, are not unreasonable.

    The bottom line here is that this is coming, ready or not. It has been inevitable for some time. Overall, it is probably a good thing. There are pitfalls and cause for some concern that this is done as well as it can be done. Sticking our head in the sand will not make it go away. A stronger more punitive NCAA is NOT what we should want. We've seen how that works - it doesn't. Cam and AU skated. Bama got nailed for textbooks. One had to vacate wins. The other won the NC. You want more of that? I'll pass.
    Roll Tide Roll!!!

    The TideFan formerly known as NationalTitles16, NationalTitles15, NationalTitles14, NationalTitles13, and NationalTitles12.

  4. #459
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    Re: Fair Pay to Play Act Signed into Law in CA

    Quote Originally Posted by CajunCrimson View Post
    I guess I'm a stickler for the rules.
    So when the laws and rules support this, so will you right? Because it is coming.

  5. #460
    BamaNation First Team DogPatch's Avatar
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    Re: Fair Pay to Play Act Signed into Law in CA

    I'll still support Bama, but if this gains traction and spread throughout the country, I'll no longer be a college football fan in the general sense.

  6. #461
    BamaNation Hall of Fame KrAzY3's Avatar
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    Re: Fair Pay to Play Act Signed into Law in CA

    Quote Originally Posted by B1GTide View Post
    I do not get to set upper limits on how much someone else should get paid, and I am not envious enough to try. Just like everyone else, they should be free to earn what they can, wherever they can, in as many ways as they can.
    You said you were in the military. You couldn't even quit during your enlistment period. Heck, my brother got recalled when he was working on his degree. Someone could have showed up with a bag of cash and said alright here's how much I will pay you to come work for me, and you probably couldn't take it! A lot of arrangements come with requirements and stipulations.

    In this case, the college athletes only have their scholarships and eligibility to lose! They can quit at anytime (unlike you when you were making less than 20K per year), they can seek any endorsement they wish, they are absolutely 100% free to make choices regarding their future. They simply have to meet certain obligations if they wish to continue being on scholarship and playing college sports. No one is going to send military police to track them down if they don't show up for practice or turn pro. If they want the benefits of being a college athlete they have to follow the rules. I'd add that there are also a lot of rules that make things really student athlete friendly, far more so than the world of professional sports and we're not spending our time discussing those here.

    Having said that, your position seems rather intractable. It's like a prosecutor saying I'm open to any plea deal that involves the death penalty. That doesn't really leave much to discuss does it?

    Quote Originally Posted by davefrat View Post
    Saban makes almost $10 million, we have assistants making over a million and others making hundreds of thousands a year...the schools take in millions...the NCAA multitudes of that.

    Yes, people are making millions off the labor of the players.
    You said and I quote: "everyone but the players". You are now qualifying that down to a rather small group of people. Take a look at the stadium during gameday, look at all the people on the sidelines, the cheerleaders, the band, etc... You're talking about a very small fraction of the people. Do the cheerleaders, band members, etc... not deserve their cut to?

    Secondly, no the schools don't make millions. Of the schools with publicly accessible information, around 1% of the schools have profitable athletic departments. The rest? Most are subsidized. That's one part of this that I think many people really don't get. College athletics generally speaking are not profitable. Even many college football teams lose money. So no, the schools aren't making millions. Truth is they're paying millions. Millions are being spent on the players.

    You bring up Saban but he's an interesting point. There's data to show he's helped his athletes make millions and millions of dollars. His recruits have more professional success relative to their star ratings. So, what is college for if not to help provide future success? How much is the best ever worth as a teacher? If a law professor could help his students make millions more in their professional careers how much would he be worth? That's another part that's overlooked, college is about preparing the players for their future career. People act like the education part of meaningless, but even if it is, the preparation for a career in football is certainly quite valuable!

    Having said all that, yes of course there's room for improvement. It just shouldn't be destructive to the sport. Saban is worth that, but is Pruitt worth 4 million? I doubt it. To that end, I'd be fine with something that said an athletic department can only spend X of their expenditures on coaches. That's a pretty strong restriction, but if it was done properly it would be fine and would not only curtail out of control spending, but also would make sure that the schools that aren't investing as heavily in their student athletes wouldn't be able to spend heavily on coaches instead. There's not just one solution to these issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by NationalTitles17 View Post
    I agree with letting kids go pro out of high school.
    I agree with that to, but it's really not college sports responsibility. I've been discussing this for a while here, and most my suggestions fall on deaf ears. I'm ok with putting X amount of NCAA proceeds into a college athlete retirement fund. People complain about what the NCAA makes but are floating this sponsorship thing as the only solution. I'm ok with a semi-pro alternative out of high school. I'm ok with limited use of likeness tied to things like loss of future earnings insurance. I made another suggestion above. I was for a stipend.

    I just don't see why a lot of people are selling this as, the only way to serve the interest of (some) student athletes is to mandate that college sports are forcibly turned professional. No, that's not the only possible solution and it's a rather dangerous one at that.

    One of my major concerns is that some people are approaching this from an idealistic standpoint. Whether it is to preserve some notion of purity, or the idea that these players have to be professionals. I don't see how we can really claim to care about what is best for the athletes when we only care the method and not the results.
    Last edited by KrAzY3; October 11th, 2019 at 04:46 AM.
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  7. #462
    BamaNation Hall of Fame CajunCrimson's Avatar
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    Re: Fair Pay to Play Act Signed into Law in CA

    Quote Originally Posted by B1GTide View Post
    So when the laws and rules support this, so will you right? Because it is coming.

    Nationally? Yes
    California? Not a Chance.

    But I’m likely to lose interest. This thread has reinforced that
    Last edited by CajunCrimson; October 11th, 2019 at 05:09 AM.
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  8. #463
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    Re: Fair Pay to Play Act Signed into Law in CA

    Quote Originally Posted by KrAzY3 View Post
    Having said that, your position seems rather intractable.
    Here is my position. I support the right of these players to get paid for the use of their name and likeness, and I believe that this can be done without ruining the game. Those are pretty generic, with lots of room for maneuvering to make it work. I am not sure what you see as intractable about that.

    I also believe that this change is going to happen no matter where I stand on the issue. I recognize that I could be wrong about the inevitability of this, but with Congress involved, it seems very likely.

    That is why I would prefer to talk about ways that this could be implemented without ruining the game rather than why this shouldn't happen. They may both be a waste of time since we are not policy makers, but one seems more meaningful than the other.

    Will I be upset if Congress decides not to allow this to happen by banning this type of payment? Nope. Not for a second. I find this highly unlikely, but I will simply wonder about what comes next and move on.

  9. #464
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    Re: Fair Pay to Play Act Signed into Law in CA

    Quote Originally Posted by B1GTide View Post
    Here is my position. I support the right of these players to get paid for the use of their name and likeness, and I believe that this can be done without ruining the game. Those are pretty generic, with lots of room for maneuvering to make it work. I am not sure what you see as intractable about that.

    I also believe that this change is going to happen no matter where I stand on the issue. I recognize that I could be wrong about the inevitability of this, but with Congress involved, it seems very likely.

    That is why I would prefer to talk about ways that this could be implemented without ruining the game rather than why this shouldn't happen. They may both be a waste of time since we are not policy makers, but one seems more meaningful than the other.

    Will I be upset if Congress decides not to allow this to happen by banning this type of payment? Nope. Not for a second. I find this highly unlikely, but I will simply wonder about what comes next and move on.
    I agree that it's coming, and we can get on board or get run over by the train. Don't have to like or agree with it, but we will have to live with it.

    Here's the question: How does this not ruin the game?

    Because of the endorsement opportunities, I see it as an open invitation for top recruits to go to big markets -- NYC, Los Angeles, Chicago, Dallas, Nashville, Atlanta etc. Smaller markets (like most college towns, including Tuscaloosa) simply don't offer that level of potential. College teams that have a booster that is at the effective level of an NFL owner (UTe, Oregon, and until Boone Pickens died, OSUw) will be able to overcome their small-market disadvantages.

    Expect to see a YellaWood commercial featuring Bo Nix about 30 seconds after the Alabama legislature passes the enabling laws. Will Mac Jones endorse Bryant Bank? Maybe. Can Nick Saban provide a car to Trey Sanders in exchange for personal appearances and filming a commercial? That one will be interesting. So I guess some small-market boosters might have pockets that are deep enough to compete at some level, but there's no way around the opportunities offered by large markets.

    The NFL gets around the difficulty with a collective bargaining agreement -- owners (management) vs. NFL Players Association (labor). That agreement sets rules around how players come into the league, limits compensation for those new players, limits free agency, provides compensation to teams that lose players that way, and does other things to keep Green Bay, Kansas City and other small market teams competitive. Plus, there's a Commissioner who has wide-ranging powers to dictate by fiat. You can agree with Goodell or not, but within the strictures of the agreement, it's about impossible to win an argument with him.

    The college presidents could probably form an analogue to the NFL owners pretty easily. And they might (maybe) have an analogue to the Commissioner (probably a committee of some sort). But how do you get an analogue to the NFLPA for them to bargain with? Complicating matters is the fact that most of the recruits aren't old enough to legally execute a contract.

    You seem to think the game won't be ruined. I wish I shared your optimism, and am curious -- what do you see that prevents my doomsday scenario from materializing?
    Last edited by 4Q Basket Case; October 11th, 2019 at 07:34 AM.
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  10. #465
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    Re: Fair Pay to Play Act Signed into Law in CA

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4Q Basket Case View Post
    I agree that it's coming, and we can get on board or get run over by the train. Don't have to like or agree with it, but we will have to live with it.

    Here's the question: How does this not ruin the game?

    Because of the endorsement opportunities, I see it as an open invitation for top recruits to go to big markets -- NYC, Los Angeles, Chicago, Dallas, Nashville, Atlanta etc. Smaller markets (like most college towns, including Tuscaloosa) simply don't offer that level of potential. College teams that have a booster that is at the effective level of an NFL owner (UTe, Oregon, and until Boone Pickens died, OSUw) will be able to overcome their small-market disadvantages.

    I guess some small-market boosters have pockets that are deep enough to do something similar, but there's no way around the opportunities offered by large markets. Expect to see a YellaWood commercial featuring Bo Nix about 30 seconds after the Alabama legislature passes the enabling laws. Will Mac Jones endorse Bryant Bank? Maybe. Can Nick Saban provide a car to Trey Sanders in exchange for personal appearances and filming a commercial? That one will be interesting.

    The NFL gets around the difficulty with a collective bargaining agreement -- owners (management) vs. NFL Players Association (labor). That agreement sets rules around how players come into the league, limits free agency, provides compensation to teams that lose players that way, and does other things to keep Green Bay, Kansas City and other small market teams competitive. The college presidents could probably form an analogue to the NFL owners pretty easily, but how do you get an analogue to the NFLPA to bargain with? Complicating matters is the fact that most of the recruits aren't old enough to legally execute a contract.

    You seem to think the game won't be ruined. I wish I shared your optimism, and am curious -- what do you see that prevents my doomsday scenario from materializing?

  11. #466
    BamaNation Hall of Fame B1GTide's Avatar
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    Re: Fair Pay to Play Act Signed into Law in CA

    Quote Originally Posted by 4Q Basket Case View Post
    You seem to think the game won't be ruined. I wish I shared your optimism, and am curious -- what do you see that prevents my doomsday scenario from materializing?
    I don't know what the law will look like, so I don't really have a starting point, but I can see ways that this could be allowed using "pools" instead of or tied to individual contracts. This would allow for a more controlled environment. What those pools look like, who manages them, what players have access to them, when and to what degree - all stuff that I think could be sorted out. But the "pool" idea is one that would allow for the flow of this money into the hands of the players, at no additional cost to the schools, and would also be somewhat controlled or monitored to help keep bad actors at arms length.

  12. #467
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    Re: Fair Pay to Play Act Signed into Law in CA

    Quote Originally Posted by davefrat View Post
    Good looking female students get paid to work at Hooters because the business owner knows they'll bring in men who want to admire them and it doesn't matter if they're on an academic scholarship...no reason why a college athlete on scholarship shouldn't be able to get paid by some private business owner to bring in customers who want to admire them.

    And at the risk of ticking some people off, adhering to the free market model is more important than adhering to the amateur sports model in my opinion.
    The NCAA stands for "National Collegiate Athletic Association" or something like that. Students working at Hooters do not come under their umbrella...

  13. #468
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    Re: Fair Pay to Play Act Signed into Law in CA

    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonaudio View Post
    Fiutak nailed it in this week's Cavalcade of Whimsy, imo:
    Hmmm. He brings up some points that I had not even considered. If a kid is getting money from you, he is basically a paid employee. With that said, he is somewhat obligated to you. The Contract opens a window for regular "business calls" between them. If said Booster wants to put a big sum of money on the outcome of the next game (by say, point shaving or whatever), how do you police this?
    Last edited by NoNC4Tubs; October 11th, 2019 at 11:54 AM.

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