Fair Pay to Play Act Signed into Law in CA

KrAzY3

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I do not get to set upper limits on how much someone else should get paid, and I am not envious enough to try. Just like everyone else, they should be free to earn what they can, wherever they can, in as many ways as they can.
You said you were in the military. You couldn't even quit during your enlistment period. Heck, my brother got recalled when he was working on his degree. Someone could have showed up with a bag of cash and said alright here's how much I will pay you to come work for me, and you probably couldn't take it! A lot of arrangements come with requirements and stipulations.

In this case, the college athletes only have their scholarships and eligibility to lose! They can quit at anytime (unlike you when you were making less than 20K per year), they can seek any endorsement they wish, they are absolutely 100% free to make choices regarding their future. They simply have to meet certain obligations if they wish to continue being on scholarship and playing college sports. No one is going to send military police to track them down if they don't show up for practice or turn pro. If they want the benefits of being a college athlete they have to follow the rules. I'd add that there are also a lot of rules that make things really student athlete friendly, far more so than the world of professional sports and we're not spending our time discussing those here.

Having said that, your position seems rather intractable. It's like a prosecutor saying I'm open to any plea deal that involves the death penalty. That doesn't really leave much to discuss does it?

Saban makes almost $10 million, we have assistants making over a million and others making hundreds of thousands a year...the schools take in millions...the NCAA multitudes of that.

Yes, people are making millions off the labor of the players.
You said and I quote: "everyone but the players". You are now qualifying that down to a rather small group of people. Take a look at the stadium during gameday, look at all the people on the sidelines, the cheerleaders, the band, etc... You're talking about a very small fraction of the people. Do the cheerleaders, band members, etc... not deserve their cut to?

Secondly, no the schools don't make millions. Of the schools with publicly accessible information, around 1% of the schools have profitable athletic departments. The rest? Most are subsidized. That's one part of this that I think many people really don't get. College athletics generally speaking are not profitable. Even many college football teams lose money. So no, the schools aren't making millions. Truth is they're paying millions. Millions are being spent on the players.

You bring up Saban but he's an interesting point. There's data to show he's helped his athletes make millions and millions of dollars. His recruits have more professional success relative to their star ratings. So, what is college for if not to help provide future success? How much is the best ever worth as a teacher? If a law professor could help his students make millions more in their professional careers how much would he be worth? That's another part that's overlooked, college is about preparing the players for their future career. People act like the education part of meaningless, but even if it is, the preparation for a career in football is certainly quite valuable!

Having said all that, yes of course there's room for improvement. It just shouldn't be destructive to the sport. Saban is worth that, but is Pruitt worth 4 million? I doubt it. To that end, I'd be fine with something that said an athletic department can only spend X of their expenditures on coaches. That's a pretty strong restriction, but if it was done properly it would be fine and would not only curtail out of control spending, but also would make sure that the schools that aren't investing as heavily in their student athletes wouldn't be able to spend heavily on coaches instead. There's not just one solution to these issues.

I agree with letting kids go pro out of high school.
I agree with that to, but it's really not college sports responsibility. I've been discussing this for a while here, and most my suggestions fall on deaf ears. I'm ok with putting X amount of NCAA proceeds into a college athlete retirement fund. People complain about what the NCAA makes but are floating this sponsorship thing as the only solution. I'm ok with a semi-pro alternative out of high school. I'm ok with limited use of likeness tied to things like loss of future earnings insurance. I made another suggestion above. I was for a stipend.

I just don't see why a lot of people are selling this as, the only way to serve the interest of (some) student athletes is to mandate that college sports are forcibly turned professional. No, that's not the only possible solution and it's a rather dangerous one at that.

One of my major concerns is that some people are approaching this from an idealistic standpoint. Whether it is to preserve some notion of purity, or the idea that these players have to be professionals. I don't see how we can really claim to care about what is best for the athletes when we only care the method and not the results.
 
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B1GTide

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Having said that, your position seems rather intractable.
Here is my position. I support the right of these players to get paid for the use of their name and likeness, and I believe that this can be done without ruining the game. Those are pretty generic, with lots of room for maneuvering to make it work. I am not sure what you see as intractable about that.

I also believe that this change is going to happen no matter where I stand on the issue. I recognize that I could be wrong about the inevitability of this, but with Congress involved, it seems very likely.

That is why I would prefer to talk about ways that this could be implemented without ruining the game rather than why this shouldn't happen. They may both be a waste of time since we are not policy makers, but one seems more meaningful than the other.

Will I be upset if Congress decides not to allow this to happen by banning this type of payment? Nope. Not for a second. I find this highly unlikely, but I will simply wonder about what comes next and move on.
 

4Q Basket Case

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Here is my position. I support the right of these players to get paid for the use of their name and likeness, and I believe that this can be done without ruining the game. Those are pretty generic, with lots of room for maneuvering to make it work. I am not sure what you see as intractable about that.

I also believe that this change is going to happen no matter where I stand on the issue. I recognize that I could be wrong about the inevitability of this, but with Congress involved, it seems very likely.

That is why I would prefer to talk about ways that this could be implemented without ruining the game rather than why this shouldn't happen. They may both be a waste of time since we are not policy makers, but one seems more meaningful than the other.

Will I be upset if Congress decides not to allow this to happen by banning this type of payment? Nope. Not for a second. I find this highly unlikely, but I will simply wonder about what comes next and move on.
I agree that it's coming, and we can get on board or get run over by the train. Don't have to like or agree with it, but we will have to live with it.

Here's the question: How does this not ruin the game?

Because of the endorsement opportunities, I see it as an open invitation for top recruits to go to big markets -- NYC, Los Angeles, Chicago, Dallas, Nashville, Atlanta etc. Smaller markets (like most college towns, including Tuscaloosa) simply don't offer that level of potential. College teams that have a booster that is at the effective level of an NFL owner (UTe, Oregon, and until Boone Pickens died, OSUw) will be able to overcome their small-market disadvantages.

Expect to see a YellaWood commercial featuring Bo Nix about 30 seconds after the Alabama legislature passes the enabling laws. Will Mac Jones endorse Bryant Bank? Maybe. Can Nick Saban provide a car to Trey Sanders in exchange for personal appearances and filming a commercial? That one will be interesting. So I guess some small-market boosters might have pockets that are deep enough to compete at some level, but there's no way around the opportunities offered by large markets.

The NFL gets around the difficulty with a collective bargaining agreement -- owners (management) vs. NFL Players Association (labor). That agreement sets rules around how players come into the league, limits compensation for those new players, limits free agency, provides compensation to teams that lose players that way, and does other things to keep Green Bay, Kansas City and other small market teams competitive. Plus, there's a Commissioner who has wide-ranging powers to dictate by fiat. You can agree with Goodell or not, but within the strictures of the agreement, it's about impossible to win an argument with him.

The college presidents could probably form an analogue to the NFL owners pretty easily. And they might (maybe) have an analogue to the Commissioner (probably a committee of some sort). But how do you get an analogue to the NFLPA for them to bargain with? Complicating matters is the fact that most of the recruits aren't old enough to legally execute a contract.

You seem to think the game won't be ruined. I wish I shared your optimism, and am curious -- what do you see that prevents my doomsday scenario from materializing?
 
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The Ols

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I agree that it's coming, and we can get on board or get run over by the train. Don't have to like or agree with it, but we will have to live with it.

Here's the question: How does this not ruin the game?

Because of the endorsement opportunities, I see it as an open invitation for top recruits to go to big markets -- NYC, Los Angeles, Chicago, Dallas, Nashville, Atlanta etc. Smaller markets (like most college towns, including Tuscaloosa) simply don't offer that level of potential. College teams that have a booster that is at the effective level of an NFL owner (UTe, Oregon, and until Boone Pickens died, OSUw) will be able to overcome their small-market disadvantages.

I guess some small-market boosters have pockets that are deep enough to do something similar, but there's no way around the opportunities offered by large markets. Expect to see a YellaWood commercial featuring Bo Nix about 30 seconds after the Alabama legislature passes the enabling laws. Will Mac Jones endorse Bryant Bank? Maybe. Can Nick Saban provide a car to Trey Sanders in exchange for personal appearances and filming a commercial? That one will be interesting.

The NFL gets around the difficulty with a collective bargaining agreement -- owners (management) vs. NFL Players Association (labor). That agreement sets rules around how players come into the league, limits free agency, provides compensation to teams that lose players that way, and does other things to keep Green Bay, Kansas City and other small market teams competitive. The college presidents could probably form an analogue to the NFL owners pretty easily, but how do you get an analogue to the NFLPA to bargain with? Complicating matters is the fact that most of the recruits aren't old enough to legally execute a contract.

You seem to think the game won't be ruined. I wish I shared your optimism, and am curious -- what do you see that prevents my doomsday scenario from materializing?
 

B1GTide

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You seem to think the game won't be ruined. I wish I shared your optimism, and am curious -- what do you see that prevents my doomsday scenario from materializing?
I don't know what the law will look like, so I don't really have a starting point, but I can see ways that this could be allowed using "pools" instead of or tied to individual contracts. This would allow for a more controlled environment. What those pools look like, who manages them, what players have access to them, when and to what degree - all stuff that I think could be sorted out. But the "pool" idea is one that would allow for the flow of this money into the hands of the players, at no additional cost to the schools, and would also be somewhat controlled or monitored to help keep bad actors at arms length.
 

NoNC4Tubs

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Good looking female students get paid to work at Hooters because the business owner knows they'll bring in men who want to admire them and it doesn't matter if they're on an academic scholarship...no reason why a college athlete on scholarship shouldn't be able to get paid by some private business owner to bring in customers who want to admire them.

And at the risk of ticking some people off, adhering to the free market model is more important than adhering to the amateur sports model in my opinion.
The NCAA stands for "National Collegiate Athletic Association" or something like that. Students working at Hooters do not come under their umbrella... :cool2:
 

NoNC4Tubs

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Fiutak nailed it in this week's Cavalcade of Whimsy, imo:
Hmmm. He brings up some points that I had not even considered. If a kid is getting money from you, he is basically a paid employee. With that said, he is somewhat obligated to you. The Contract opens a window for regular "business calls" between them. If said Booster wants to put a big sum of money on the outcome of the next game (by say, point shaving or whatever), how do you police this? :cool2:
 
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NoNC4Tubs

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You act as if:

2- the best players are currently not paid via illegal benefits (from boosters).
At least there are clear cut rules against it. Once that law takes hold, Pandora's Box is forever opened. CFB as we all love it, will be history.
 
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NoNC4Tubs

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So can you please tell me when the Dallas Cowboys and New York Yankees are going to win the big one again and start a dynasty. Because all of those dollars aren't preventing these poor teams like the Royals and Seahawks from getting to the big one more times in the last 15 years than these mega dollar teams.
You ever heard the term "Salary Caps"...?
 

NoNC4Tubs

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Reminds me of the quote by Harry Truman about economists.

“Give me a one-handed Economist. All my economists say 'on hand...', then 'but on the other...”

That’s about where I stand on this right now. I don’t have a clue as to what this will mean in terms of the college football we know and love today.

I do think there will be some “unintended consequences” that many didn’t anticipate. Seems like there always is. And whether they are good or bad I guess depends on whether your “ox is being gored”.
That's the main problem, they haven't spent one minute exploring what unintended consequences will result from this whole issue... :cool2:
 
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NoNC4Tubs

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I hear you.

Serious question: Why is the supposed "Amateur" part of this so important to you? Is there some nobility inherent in being "Amateur" that enhances the product on the field? Let's put aside the fact the the sport has not really been "Amateur" in ages, if it ever truly was. It will be the same players, regardless. It will be the same schools. The difference will be the players can use their image and likeness to get paid.
It will be unregulated...except by the IRS.
 

KrAzY3

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I don't know what the law will look like, so I don't really have a starting point, but I can see ways that this could be allowed using "pools" instead of or tied to individual contracts. This would allow for a more controlled environment. What those pools look like, who manages them, what players have access to them, when and to what degree - all stuff that I think could be sorted out. But the "pool" idea is one that would allow for the flow of this money into the hands of the players, at no additional cost to the schools, and would also be somewhat controlled or monitored to help keep bad actors at arms length.
If this was what the California law was, I'd be a lot less concerned. It doesn't mean I'd support it outright, but I'd be a lot less chicken little in my description of the potential outcome. I think 4Q outlined a lot of my concerns better than I could, but the thing is California had the chance to move in more structured direction but they deliberately chose another path. Just figuring out how to reign in California in and of itself will be a huge challenge.

As it stands, any attempts to do some of the things you are describing could be seen as a violation of the California law. I guess that's where some of this is talking past each other, because I see it as a potential doomsday scenario, and others seem to just see it as a way to bring the parties to the table. But, even if the end game is what you are describing, even if I was 100% on board with that, I'd still see getting California to back down as a top priority.
 

4Q Basket Case

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If this was what the California law was, I'd be a lot less concerned. It doesn't mean I'd support it outright, but I'd be a lot less chicken little in my description of the potential outcome. I think 4Q outlined a lot of my concerns better than I could, but the thing is California had the chance to move in more structured direction but they deliberately chose another path. Just figuring out how to reign in California in and of itself will be a huge challenge.

As it stands, any attempts to do some of the things you are describing could be seen as a violation of the California law. I guess that's where some of this is talking past each other, because I see it as a potential doomsday scenario, and others seem to just see it as a way to bring the parties to the table. But, even if the end game is what you are describing, even if I was 100% on board with that, I'd still see getting California to back down as a top priority.
I was about to post something along these lines. While I like BIG's proposal, it's hard to implement a blanket rule when there are multiple states, and within each state untold numbers of athletes, each with their own agendas, and nothing whatsoever binding them together.

Might be time for Congress to stick its nose in and set a uniform rule for all states. As much as I despise those clowns (Congress), it might be better than the alternative.

I'm not sure this is a federal question. But a trivial little thing like the 10th Amendment hasn't slowed them down in the past, so why would it stop them now?
 

B1GTide

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I was about to post something along these lines. While I like BIG's proposal, it's hard to implement a blanket rule when there are multiple states, and within each state untold numbers of athletes, each with their own agendas, and nothing whatsoever binding them together.

Might be time for Congress to stick its nose in and set a uniform rule for all states. As much as I despise those clowns (Congress), it might be better than the alternative.

I'm not sure this is a federal question. But a trivial little thing like the 10th Amendment hasn't slowed them down in the past, so why would it stop them now?
Remember, the idea is that federal law would supersede individual state laws. The reason that Congress got involved is because they were asked to by the NCAA. They wish to avoid the issues created when every state passes different laws to allow this type of income. IMO, if the states are going to pass these laws (and they have already started), then Congress has to step in or the NCAA is already dead (sidebar - that wouldn't be a bad thing).

So, while the CA law is a hot mess, it is not what anyone is focused on because it will not be what decides this issue. It was just the first shot fired.
 

davefrat

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The NCAA stands for "National Collegiate Athletic Association" or something like that. Students working at Hooters do not come under their umbrella... :cool2:
That’s the point...the NCAA arbitrarily restricts the ability of players to earn money when other students on scholarship have no such restrictions.

The contemporary amateur model is a joke and serves to benefit the NCAA and others at the expense of players.
 

davefrat

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Hmmm. He brings up some points that I had not even considered. If a kid is getting money from you, he is basically a paid employee. With that said, he is somewhat obligated to you. The Contract opens a window for regular "business calls" between them. If said Booster wants to put a big sum of money on the outcome of the next game (by say, point shaving or whatever), how do you police this? :cool2:
How do you police the current booster who is greasing the players and wants to engage in point shaving?
 

81usaf92

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So, while the CA law is a hot mess, it is not what anyone is focused on because it will not be what decides this issue. It was just the first shot fired.
This. It is just an action to get the NCAA and Congress to the table. Even if the CA bill goes unchallenged and becomes law, the NCAA could still stick to their “no championships for CA” stance and be okay. But let’s face it, the NCAA isn’t going to allow themselves to lose all the CA money that they are making and they aren’t going to cave to the more extreme parts either. It’s like buying a car, “ they go high, you go low, and you both generally walk away happy”.
 

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