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Greg Sankey on SEC officiating

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IndyBison

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crimsonaudio said:
IndyBison - I guess we're largely talking past one another here - you seem to be focusing entirely on my fandom as if I don't ever see these blatantly missed calls in other games, or those that aren't called against us. I do. All the time.

Some are understandable - perfection should be the goal but isn't attainable under the current methods by which games are officiated.

But I cannot tell you the number of times each and every week I see a referee literally looking, direct line of site, at an incredible hold that doesn't get flagged. Oh, I know, "you can call holding on every play if you wanted to", I've heard the platitudes - the reality is there are literally potentially game-changing situations each and every week where a DE our OLB get hooked and tackled right in front of the referee with no flag. And yes, I'm biased, but I see a lot of it in Bama games, as generally speaking the Bama players are biggerfasterstronger than anyone else these OLs have seen, and they get beat rather consistently. This isn't when Bama is up by 40, it often happens in the first quarter.

Conspiracy? Nah.

Apathy towards calling the game as accurately as possible under the belief that Bama's gonna likely win by 30+ anyway? Sure.
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Thanks! Raising the threshold for some of the calls I mention don't happen early in a game where it's still close regardless of how you expect a game MAY turn out. Especially at the FBS level you never know how a game will turn out. And I'm assuming they are also less likely to change that threshold in an FBS game as well regardless of the score. I only mentioned it because we are more apt to do that at the D3 level because there tends to be a bigger gap between the haves and have nots.

If an official sees that egregious of a hold and passes on it, they are going to have to justify it in their weekly grading report. If it's consistently that bad none of the SEC officials will ever get hired into the NFL because they would not hire someone who does that. And they will likely not be hired back the following year.

I love using analogies. Let's say a DE easily goes around an OT and sacks the QB (official misses a hold). The OT apparently saw the defender (the official was looking right at it). Did he not get there fast enough (did the official see the entire block or get screened by another player)? Or was the called blocking scheme for him to block someone else (was he watching one of his other keys)? Or was the play designed to go the other way so they intended to let that player go free (was it far enough away from the point of attack or didn't have an affect on the play)? Of did he intentionally allow the defender to go because he wanted his QB to get sacked (did he see the action and ignore it because he doesn't care to get the call right)? Do you see how ridiculous that last statement is? No OT would intentionally do that. Even if his coach told him to let the DE sack the QB he would likely not do it because he knows NFL scouts are there watching him (NFL scouts are watching FBS officials and in many cases the graders) and he likely doesn't get named All-Conference or All-American (equivalent to an official getting a top post season assignment) if he does it. We know a coach would never tell a player to intentionally let a defender sack the QB and we know he wouldn't intentionally do it on his own. Yet that is the argument you guys are making toward the officials.
 
NoNC4Tubs

NoNC4Tubs

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IndyBison said:
Everybody loves a good conspiracy theory. The only way this happens intentionally is if the league is directing it. That would be very difficult to keep under wraps. If something like that was directed and the official complied it would greatly reduce the chance for them to advance to the NFL because their scouts would be watching them and grading them poorly because they were constantly getting calls wrong. Otherwise I have no idea why the things you mention could be happening. I'm pretty certain they aren't intentional for or against any one team. As I've mentioned before though I would think the league would definitely want to analyse it.
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Something is afoot, but I don't necessarily think that the Conference is involved. There are a lot of outside influencers. Looking at the historic benefactors points the direction from which it comes...

This years au-uga and Iron Bowl games will probably show what I am talking about.

How Nix got away with Intentional Grounding in the Oregon game still baffles me. Especially when later in the game Oregon on got that notoriously bad Intentional Grounding call that killed a drive that most likely made the difference in the final outcome... :cool2:
 
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RTR91

RTR91

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I wish I could receive excellent grades even if I make a mistake by saying "Well it was over. I knew there was no point."
 
NoNC4Tubs

NoNC4Tubs

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IndyBison said:
The issue with making them full time is there isn't much more they could do during the week. Other sports have full time officials because there are games almost every day. That's not true for football. People working D1 are probably spending 10-15 hours per week doing video review, quizzes, meetings, and self-study. They'll travel Friday for a Saturday game and return either Saturday night or Sunday depending on game time and distance home. SEC officials are probably graders for the FCS conferences in their area so they'll spend time doing that as well. If there were regular games during the week then it would make more sense to have them be full time during the season like professional hockey, basketball and baseball officials.
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If you look at it in a 40-hour work week perspective, then yes. But this job is outside of that (especially with the money involved). The Play by Play announcers don't work a 40-hour work week, but get paid handsomely because of the value of what they do. The same could be said of SEC Officiating. The SEC Conference CAN afford to do this.
 
NoNC4Tubs

NoNC4Tubs

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At the very least, let's add an additional official on the field. The only ones that would object to this [Ahem, awbern] are the ones that count on getting away with missed calls anyways... :cool2:
 
I

IndyBison

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crimsonaudio said:
Or "the play went the other way" since plays never double back.
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And if he's still holding when the runner doubles back you have something. There has to be a line somewhere.

The comments by people here are no different anecdotally than any other fan base. I bet if you went to the Arkansas board during or after the game they are talking about all the fouls Alabama got away with and completely ignoring the fact they weren't called for any. If they did they would complain a couple of them were incorrect. It's human nature.

I am actually fascinated by the data you all have come up with. A disparity that large does seem unusual especially over a period of time. It's not unusual for a game here or there to have legitimately have a big disparity, but I would love to look through several plays to see what is actually happening. It doesn't seem to be hurting the Tide so that's the good news! I know it was an NFL number but Dean Blandino tweeted the other day that the team with the fewer fouls wins 49.7%. The team with the fewer turners wins 77% of the time. His point was people argue teams lose because they get more flags thrown than their opponent. At least in the NFL it makes no difference. Players committing turnovers has a much greater impact.
 
crimsonaudio

crimsonaudio

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IndyBison said:
And if he's still holding when the runner doubles back you have something. There has to be a line somewhere.
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Yeah, the line should be if the player is held in the first place - that's entirely the point. The ref has no idea where the play is going to go, so by not calling it he's potentially altering the game. If you really think the best way to play the game is to only call fouls near the ball then we may as well end the discussion right now. Plus, the ref has no way of knowing as to whether the player being held could have chased down the RB from behind if he was forced to pause or even double back, though the player never gets the chance as he's been hooked to the ground by the OL.

And then there are plays like this. Obviously Lewis had no chance to influence the play. Or the referee was looking at the sidelines. No wait, it's textbook blocking, that's it! But no way was he swallowing the flag, these angelic figures in stripes would never do such a thing.

 
4

4Q Basket Case

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I sure wish we still had the hard data on Alabama's opponents' holding calls vs. (1) those same opponents when playing a team not named Alabama, and (2) Alabama's holding calls vs. its opponents in our games.

It wasn't close. For my fellow statistics geeks, it was several standard deviations from the mean.

There was no reasonable explanation other than (1) Alabama was held to a different (stricter) standard than our opponents, and (2) our opponents are held to a more lenient standard against us than they are against other teams.

IndyBison: I say this in all sincerity....I'm not sure how closely you've followed Alabama football over the years. But this is a sensitive subject on the board for several reasons:

1. The above pattern on holding calls that has pervaded for several years now.

2. The demonstrably false insistence of other schools' fans that Alabama gets all the calls.

3. The fact that blown calls, particularly badly missed illegal OL downfield, have directly cost us at least two conference losses -- one cost us a chance at a third consecutive national championship, and we were exceedingly fortunate that the other didn't have NC implications.

4. It's starting to fade now, but among fans aged 35 or older, there's still sensitivity to the SEC office allowing conference opponents an exceedingly high percentage of off weeks before playing Alabama, at one point, more than the entire rest of the conference combined.

4A. Not as familiar to a lot, but the SEC office warned every single school in the entire SEC...except Alabama, of course...away from Albert Means. Which, along with our own bumbling administration, led to more than a decade of continual misery.

5. Some calls during years where we honestly weren't championship contenders, so the damage was mostly confined to salvaging pride -- an inexplicably blown PI call in the end zone against LSU in the 2004 game in Baton Rouge, at least two calls of caught passes by Arkansas that were in fact traps (they would have been overturned by replay, if it were available at the time, and one was really close so I cut the refs some slack on that one. The other was clear). Another incredibly ticky-tack PI call on an interception against Arkansas that would have ended the game. Instead, we ended up losing in a later OT period because we couldn't convert a 42-yard FG.

6. The real OFC (raising my hand here) recalls a jobbing as inexplicable as the 2004 LSU call, in the 1984 game at Penn State. Nothing to do with SEC refs, but still hurts.

In short, we have a way longer-than-normal list of jobbings by both your zebra colleagues and the SEC office, and the continuing disparity between holding calls. I know it's a hard job. Believe me, I've done a similarly thankless job in the corporate world.

The old saying is that once is happenstance, twice makes you wonder, three times is a pattern, and four times is proof. We're so far beyond that, it's ridiculous. Whether it's conspiracy (I don't think so), intentional (maybe, especially lately and definitely back in the day under Roy Kramer), or human bias in favor of the underdog (likely), I don't know.

But there are far too many examples for there not to be something wrong.
 
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B

BamaInMo1

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I have held my peace on this till now:
Indy, while I respect you as a person and poster, quite frankly and honestly you are so full of BULL in your attempt to defend your fellow officials. I'm not just talking about Alabama games, either.
A few years ago OFFICIALS cost Arky a game against UF. There was a late hit by a UF Olineman on and Arky defensive lineman and the flag was thrown against the Arky player and the true call was not even close. It extended a drive for UF that ended in a go ahead td caught by a UF receiver after the receiver plainly and openly pulled the Arky defender's jersey and allowed the UF receiver to catch the go ahead score when if the right call had been made a few plays before Arky runs the clock out and wins the game.
In a UT/UF game the ref was five feet away from the UT receiver and UF defender when the UT player hit the UF player. The UF player responded (of course) and was the only one that got called.
Holding is holding whether away from the play or not, whether the other team is disadvantaged talant wise or not. A penalty is a penalty.
So, in the interest of maintaining people's respect for you on this board please dispense with the same excuses we get from Steve Shaw & co and the SEC Commisioner.
Officiating now days sucks because officials pick and choose what they want to call when they feel like it and it is pretty evident.
 
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I

IndyBison

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crimsonaudio said:
Yeah, the line should be if the player is held in the first place - that's entirely the point. The ref has no idea where the play is going to go, so by not calling it he's potentially altering the game. If you really think the best way to play the game is to only call fouls near the ball then we may as well end the discussion right now. Plus, the ref has no way of knowing as to whether the player being held could have chased down the RB from behind if he was forced to pause or even double back, though the player never gets the chance as he's been hooked to the ground by the OL.

And then there are plays like this. Obviously Lewis had no chance to influence the play. Or the referee was looking at the sidelines. No wait, it's textbook blocking, that's it! But no way was he swallowing the flag, these angelic figures in stripes would never do such a thing.

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In order for there to be a holding foul it needs to be a MATERIAL RESTRICTION that IMPACTS THE PLAY. Those who say you could call a hold on every play are only referring to an jersey grab or hand outside the frame. You could call that a hold but you would be incorrect. A run goes off tackle and the back side tackle restricts the DE it has no impact on the play. The run doesn't go back that direction. As a fan you would HATE watching football because there would be a lot of fouls.

On the play in the picture you can never tell a hold from a still. The action itself definitely fits the definition of a material restriction. The blocker is definite beat and that's a standard arm across the chest band bending back of the defender. Several unknowns though in this photo. You can't tell depth from this angle. It's really hard to tell if the defender is 2 yards from the passer or 6 yards. That would make a difference here as the passer is in the process of releasing the ball. If the defender is 6 yards away you would likely pass on this because it had no impact on the play. The other aspect is I have no idea what angle this is from. Is this from the end zone behind the passer? Is it an angle from the sideline. That would only help me determine what angles the officials covering this part of the play would have. I also don't know if this QB was in the pocket or if he's scrambled and we are somewhere else on the field. That would determine who has responsibility for this block. Let's say this was a 3-step drop and pass with the QB still in the pocket. The wing to the right of the picture would have the T (assuming this is the RT) at the snap. If his initial block is clean he's going to transition to his eligible receiver. The R will start with the opposite tackle. If the LT is engage in a possible foul then he's going to keep his eyes there and not come back to this T. That means it's possible nobody is watching this block at this exact moment. With 8-man though the C should be watching this unless he's also drawn to another block in the middle.

That's just some factors that go into any play. And all of that happens and is processed in 4-5 seconds. This may very well be a missed hold if no flag was thrown. I just wanted to share different factors that go into every play and how the officials have to watch players on every play.
 
4

4Q Basket Case

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IndyBison said:
...On the play in the picture you can never tell a hold from a still....
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Based on the context provided by the rest of your post, I'm assuming you're serious with this comment. If you meant the whole 10-15 lines to be sarcastic, and I just didn't pick up on that intent, I apologize.

But Indy, if you weren't being sarcastic, this is the kind of statement that costs officials credibility.

Missing that call is indefensible, especially in light of your previous comments about officials never letting their guard down when it comes to personal safety issues. Grabbing the guy around the neck and twisting under the facemask isn't a personal safety issue? Are you really willing to rest a defense on saying that still is worthless?

If it were an isolated incident, and the distribution were approximately equal on both teams, we could overlook it, indefensible though it may be. After all, human beings are fallible. But it's not an isolated incident, and the incidence is anything but approximately equal. The frequency and skewed outcome are far beyond simple human frailty.

I just don't know how you defend that.
 
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