Question: Has our defense been "modernized" as much as our offense?

BamaBoySince89 · Nov 10, 2019

KrAzY3 said:
LSU had the ball 9 more minutes. Now flip that, imagine if they had it 9 less minutes, how different does the game look?

Outside the turnovers, this is it. The problem is not so much the defense is/isn't "modernized" as it is our willingness to completely abandon the run early on, get in a hole, and have to pass all second half to get back into the game. You can afford to do that against Arkansas, Ole Miss, and Tennessee and not worry about having to catch up. In what looks to be evenly matched games in the past two years we haven't ran the ball as much because of the threat of the pass but I don't know why we don't use the run to set up the pass in those scenarios. That alone could have changed the outcome against Clemson and LSU.

rtr90 · Nov 11, 2019

Jack Bourbon said:
I think some offenses these days are basically unstoppable, at least in college. I wish we could at least be better at slowing down the elite ones.

unstoppable in like giving less than 30 points or unstoppable like in giving 46 points. Bama gave more than what MSU, Florida, Aub, Texas and Utah State.

TIDE-HSV · Nov 11, 2019

Jack Bourbon said:
I think some offenses these days are basically unstoppable, at least in college. I wish we could at least be better at slowing down the elite ones.

Coach, in his presser, came pretty close to saying that offenses are unstoppable these days. There're going to be plays where the coverage is busted and your corners just look like fools...

B1GTide · Nov 11, 2019

TIDE-HSV said:
Coach, in his presser, came pretty close to saying that offenses are unstoppable these days. There're going to be plays where the coverage is busted and your corners just look like fools...

Yep - you have to just move on to the next play. We now have NFL offenses in college football.

Bamabuzzard · Nov 11, 2019

TIDE-HSV said:
Coach, in his presser, came pretty close to saying that offenses are unstoppable these days. There're going to be plays where the coverage is busted and your corners just look like fools...

I saw that. That is why when we have plays dead to rights in the back field or behind the LOS (especially on crucial 3rd downs), we HAVE TO make the tackle. The margin for error in this era of offense is razor thin. We can't afford to miss opportunities like we missed Saturday that would have ended the drive and given us another opportunity on offense.

Bama Czar · Nov 11, 2019

TIDE-HSV said:
Coach, in his presser, came pretty close to saying that offenses are unstoppable these days. There're going to be plays where the coverage is busted and your corners just look like fools...

Yep, agreed. IMO, this is caused by the RPO / OL being able to get 3 yards (or sometimes more depending on the officiating) downfield. It makes it nearly impossible for LBs & DBs to play their keys correctly / consistently. They can't commit to play the run too quickly now, making your run support slower (thus, opening the run-game where two yard runs now can more easily turn into 5-6 yard runs). On the other side, if you commit to quickly to the run, slants and a few other routes are much more difficult to defend (or next to impossible).

Of course, these rule changes were put in place because (as in every other sport) it is believed that the average fan only wants to see offense (regardless of sport), and that's how "great" games are measured in public opinion. It is extremely rare for a new rule to ever benefit the defense (in most any sport). It makes football sometimes unbearable for me to watch. The "dumbing-down" of sports in general....

TIDE-HSV · Nov 11, 2019

Bamabuzzard said:
I saw that. That is why when we have plays dead to rights in the back field or behind the LOS (especially on crucial 3rd downs), we HAVE TO make the tackle. The margin for error in this era of offense is razor thin. We can't afford to miss opportunities like we missed Saturday that would have ended the drive and given us another opportunity on offense.

I've addressed it elsewhere, but the "thud" method of practice tackling we've been forced to adopt may be coming back to bite us. Two-hand tag doesn't really prepare you for tackling #22 for LSU. OTOH, we simply can't afford any more practice injuries...

Bamabuzzard · Nov 11, 2019

TIDE-HSV said:
I've addressed it elsewhere, but the "thud" method of practice tackling we've been forced to adopt may be coming back to bite us. Two-hand tag doesn't really prepare you for tackling #22 for LSU. OTOH, we simply can't afford any more practice injuries...

Yeah, agreed. It seems it is a danged if you do danged if you don't type scenario. But as painful as it is for us to watch our guys whiff. It's not limited to us. I don't do it much anymore, but just watch other games for any length of time and the missed tackles, awful attempts at form tackling, mixed with have effort arm tackling and trying to "blow up" a runner JUMP off the screen.

PA Tide Fan · Nov 11, 2019

Offenses may seem unstoppable now but I think a defense will be found eventually. I like to think of football as chess game played on a field with humans instead of played on a board with pieces. Throughout the history of chess White (offense in football terms) developed different attacking ideas that at first appear to be impossible to stop but Black (defense in football terms) eventually finds a way to neutralize it.

Bamabuzzard · Nov 11, 2019

PA Tide Fan said:
Offenses may seem unstoppable now but I think a defense will be found eventually. I like to think of football as chess game played on a field with humans instead of played on a board with pieces. Throughout the history of chess White (offense in football terms) developed different attacking ideas that at first appear to be impossible to stop but Black (defense in football terms) eventually finds a way to neutralize it.

The wildcard are the rule changes. The rules keep getting changed so the offense can do more and the defense can do less. Keep doing that and defensive coordinators run out of schemes to switch to. There is already a competitive imbalance because of the rules. Coach Saban has said that multiple times over the years. What makes it a double whammy is the rules being implemented for "safety" are hurting defenses as well.

TIDE-HSV · Nov 11, 2019

PA Tide Fan said:
Offenses may seem unstoppable now but I think a defense will be found eventually. I like to think of football as chess game played on a field with humans instead of played on a board with pieces. Throughout the history of chess White (offense in football terms) developed different attacking ideas that at first appear to be impossible to stop but Black (defense in football terms) eventually finds a way to neutralize it.

I would like to think you're right and you would have been in the past. However, I'm afraid I agree with BB. I'm not sure defenses can ever catch up, with the rules in place and the way they're called. In the reviewed reception at the goal line, the offense was given a 90% preference. To uphold the call, they had to find a phantom push-out by Diggs, which just wasn't there. Offense is what the audience wants to see...

KrAzY3 · Nov 11, 2019

It's kind of worth looking at the 2015 season. Coker, against the #2, #1, and #3 team had an average rating of 175. That includes his performance in almost mirror image to the LSU game, 45-40 win over Watson and Clemsons.

Tua against the 3, 3, 4, 4, 2, 2 team (that includes both his Georgia games) had an average rating of 153.

The results in the biggest game aren't any better than Alabama's offense circa 2015. This "modern" pass heavy offense might not really be better. On the other hand, the 2015 defense still gave up 43 to Ole Miss and 40 to Clemson though. The 43-37 loss to Ole Miss played out a lot like this LSU game (Coker did have two turnovers that game, but he came in as a backup and played from behind).

The moral of the story? You get into shootouts and all defenses look bad. You turn the ball over in a tough game and you might lose. You play well in big games and you can win championships, even if your defense gives up 40 points. I don't see a fundamental problem on defense, I see a defense being put in bad situations.

Bamabuzzard · Nov 11, 2019

KrAzY3 said:
It's kind of worth looking at the 2015 season. Coker, against the #2, #1, and #3 team had an average rating of 175. That includes his performance in almost mirror image to the LSU game, 45-40 win over Watson and Clemsons.

Tua against the 3, 3, 4, 4, 2, 2 team (that includes both his Georgia games) had an average rating of 153.

The results in the biggest game aren't any better than Alabama's offense circa 2015. This "modern" pass heavy offense might not really be better. On the other hand, the 2015 defense still gave up 43 to Ole Miss and 40 to Clemson though. The 43-37 loss to Ole Miss played out a lot like this LSU game (Coker did have two turnovers that game, but he came in as a backup and played from behind).

The moral of the story? You get into shootouts and all defenses look bad. You turn the ball over in a tough game and you might lose. You play well in big games and you can win championships, even if your defense gives up 40 points. I don't see a fundamental problem on defense, I see a defense being put in bad situations.

I see a defense that doesn't have the same room for error it did 10 years ago. When you have a chance to stop a runner or quarterback behind the LOS on 3rd down and let him escape and run for a 1st down. The odds of it costing you 7 points are much greater "today" than ever before. You let it happen multiple times a game and odds are you're probably going to lose. That's not even counting self inflicted wounds. Those just guarantee the loss.

Ldlane · Nov 11, 2019

I think you have to be almost perfect in every layer of Defense, but it starts on the D-Line. No pressure up front = tremendous pressure on the secondary and eventually the receiver is going to get free.

Cruloc · Nov 11, 2019

The only thing that can really disrupt these elite offenses is....constant pressure on the QB.

I remember those Oregon offenses years ago seemed unstoppable...until Stanford beat them because mainly their DL play.

TiderJack · Nov 11, 2019

Cruloc said:
The only thing that can really disrupt these elite offenses is....constant pressure on the QB.

I remember those Oregon offenses years ago seemed unstoppable...until Stanford beat them because mainly their DL play.

We just are not as experienced or as talented as in years past. We put our 2016 defense out there with this year's offense and we beat LSWho pretty good and we would win the NC. IMO, we are modernized but do not have the Jimmy and the Joe's this year. We will be better next year for all the young ones learning this year.

Bamabuzzard · Nov 11, 2019

Cruloc said:
The only thing that can really disrupt these elite offenses is....constant pressure on the QB.

I remember those Oregon offenses years ago seemed unstoppable...until Stanford beat them because mainly their DL play.

Yep, you've got to stop them before they get started. If you can get quick penetration from your DL it normally can throw off timing and disrupt the play. I remember when LSU played Oregon when Chip Kelley was the HC. They struggled to get anything going because of LSU's DL constantly penetrating the backfield causing Kelly's high octane offense to bog down quick.

gtgilbert · Nov 11, 2019

TiderJack said:
We just are not as experienced or as talented as in years past. We put our 2016 defense out there with this year's offense and we beat LSWho pretty good and we would win the NC. IMO, we are modernized but do not have the Jimmy and the Joe's this year. We will be better next year for all the young ones learning this year.

That's just not true across the board though. we're actually relatively senior heavy compared to many past years. Jennings is a redshirt snr who has played consistently for 4 years, Diggs and Carter are seniors who have played a lot over the years. Davis is a senior who played as a freshman and consistently. Mayden is a senior, although not a lot of starting experience. Even Lewis is a reshirt junior although he's not played much the last two years. McKinney is a second year starter after contributing as a TF and Surtain is a second year starter as a Soph.

Problem is where we are inexperienced, we are really inexperienced and it's in critical ILB roles. Take just one of those young guys off the field and get Moses back and we are drastically better, and not only because moses is a stud, but he'd make the ILB next to him better also. I'd wager that even with McMillon in there instead of Moses, he'd make harris way better, just due to taking the load of being able to call the defense. As it is, we're not.

Next year we will be very, very inexperienced. Likely both OLBs, both starting safeties, the Star, one CB and one DL. Basically we have two LBs , two DL and a corner returning, but we have had a decent DL rotation so the one Dl loss won't be awful. We don't have much experience at all at OLB though. guys behind our two starters have not gotten a lot of time in games (losing anoma hurt bad there). A few DBs have been able to play and contribute in the rotation, but we'll still be looking at 1-2 roles being filled by guys without a lot of reps.

PA Tide Fan · Nov 11, 2019

TiderJack said:
We just are not as experienced or as talented as in years past. We put our 2016 defense out there with this year's offense and we beat LSWho pretty good and we would win the NC. IMO, we are modernized but do not have the Jimmy and the Joe's this year. We will be better next year for all the young ones learning this year.

Maybe, maybe not. Although the 2016 defense was great not many remember that 3 different QB's that season (Chad Kelly, Austin Allen, and Deshaun Watson) threw for 400+ yards against that defense. While some of the problem this season is no doubt injuries and inexperience history sadly shows that our defenses have gotten torched over the years by passing attacks even when we have elite personnel.

Blindside17 · Nov 11, 2019

LSU totally exposed the middle of our defense. I know injuries are what they are and you have to play with who you have, but a healthy Moses, and Ray would have forced the tigers to abandon that quickly in my opinion.

Question: Has our defense been "modernized" as much as our offense?

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