Question: Has our defense been "modernized" as much as our offense?

rgw · Nov 11, 2019

PA Tide Fan said:
Maybe, maybe not. Although the 2016 defense was great not many remember that 3 different QB's that season (Chad Kelly, Austin Allen, and Deshaun Watson) threw for 400+ yards against that defense. While some of the problem this season is no doubt injuries and inexperience history sadly shows that our defenses have gotten torched over the years by passing attacks even when we have elite personnel.

I've repeated it many times. 2016 - even with the two starters not out w/ injuries over the course of the season - was still symptomatic of the same things that have beaten us the last two years. The difference has been that the 2016 unit had a knack for TFLs, sacks, turnovers, and non-offensive touchdowns. When we don't have a ton of experience on defense and a group of guys who can get the ball into their hands somehow then we basically always get torched too bad to win without perfect offense. We've basically been living in a world where the same basic things have beaten us almost every time we lose since the Manziel game in 2012. When we don't lose in those problem matchups where opponent's scheme and talent meet in the toxic matchup for our defense, it is almost always because our offense torched the the opponent even worse (2013 TAMU, 2014 Auburn, 2015 Clemson, 2016 Ole Miss, 2018 Oklahoma). And the reasons the defense struggles are almost always the same: we can't cover little option routes on the star v. slot matchups, our field and boundary corners make too many mistakes playing the ball in 1-on-1 matchups deep, and we lose contain on the quarterback too many times leading to even more busts by the corners having to cover too many seconds. When you keep on losing the same way and only avoid the additional losses because the other side bails you out then I think that is cause for reevaluation. Basically the only thing substantial we've changed are body types and that has only assured that we don't get embarrassed by 2nd tier teams like Utah anymore.

TIDE-HSV · Nov 11, 2019

rgw said:
I've repeated it many times. 2016 - even with the two starters not out w/ injuries over the course of the season - was still symptomatic of the same things that have beaten us the last two years. The difference has been that the 2016 unit had a knack for TFLs, sacks, turnovers, and non-offensive touchdowns. When we don't have a ton of experience on defense and a group of guys who can get the ball into their hands somehow then we basically always get torched too bad to win without perfect offense. We've basically been living in a world where the same basic things have beaten us almost every time we lose since the Manziel game in 2012. When we don't lose in those problem matchups where opponent's scheme and talent meet in the toxic matchup for our defense, it is almost always because our offense torched the the opponent even worse (2013 TAMU, 2014 Auburn, 2015 Clemson, 2016 Ole Miss, 2018 Oklahoma). And the reasons the defense struggles are almost always the same: we can't cover little option routes on the star v. slot matchups, our field and boundary corners make too many mistakes playing the ball in 1-on-1 matchups deep, and we lose contain on the quarterback too many times leading to even more busts by the corners having to cover too many seconds. When you keep on losing the same way and only avoid the additional losses because the other side bails you out then I think that is cause for reevaluation. Basically the only thing substantial we've changed are body types and that has only assured that we don't get embarrassed by 2nd tier teams like Utah anymore.

Um, have you considered the number of games we've won vs. lost?

rgw · Nov 11, 2019

Fair enough but we beat 75% or more of the teams we play in February through August. When you narrow it down to only comparisons of "good v. good" situations, our performances look more middling than they did in 2008-2012. The Manziel game in 2012 was a watershed moment because it announced to everyone you didn't need Auburn/Florida talent with a Newton/Tebow QB to pull it off against us. Now nearly everyone other than UGA in the SEC has went in some direction of the spread. Nearly everyone else that is a threat at the national level has done the same.

I just think we defend these offenses worse than other defenses out there with less talent than us. It ain't good for us that LSU has went spread too if they happen to manage to develop QBs now.

rgw · Nov 11, 2019

Also, it is hard to talk about this stuff with perspective on how much success we've had. For better or worse, I tend to spend a lot of time thinking about what we could've done different to win the few we lost. Especially in times like these after a loss when it feels like I'm basically saying the same things about the defense every time now. I can't help but think Saban is handicapping himself with his own NFL-like scheme at this juncture. The execution level required to avoid a day like last Saturday or a night like in early January is just too high for us to pull off with all the attrition of junior early declarations, your typical transfer rates, and injuries. The three best defenses we've had under Saban had a lot of seniors like 2009 (Shula guys who weren't prime NFL prospects), 2011 (Hightower and Barron injuries/recovery leading to them wanting to return), and 2016 (Allen, Williams, Jackson, and Anderson return). We just can't bet on those returning guys anymore.

bigjue24 · Nov 11, 2019

rgw said:
I've repeated it many times. 2016 - even with the two starters not out w/ injuries over the course of the season - was still symptomatic of the same things that have beaten us the last two years. The difference has been that the 2016 unit had a knack for TFLs, sacks, turnovers, and non-offensive touchdowns. When we don't have a ton of experience on defense and a group of guys who can get the ball into their hands somehow then we basically always get torched too bad to win without perfect offense. We've basically been living in a world where the same basic things have beaten us almost every time we lose since the Manziel game in 2012. When we don't lose in those problem matchups where opponent's scheme and talent meet in the toxic matchup for our defense, it is almost always because our offense torched the the opponent even worse (2013 TAMU, 2014 Auburn, 2015 Clemson, 2016 Ole Miss, 2018 Oklahoma). And the reasons the defense struggles are almost always the same: we can't cover little option routes on the star v. slot matchups, our field and boundary corners make too many mistakes playing the ball in 1-on-1 matchups deep, and we lose contain on the quarterback too many times leading to even more busts by the corners having to cover too many seconds. When you keep on losing the same way and only avoid the additional losses because the other side bails you out then I think that is cause for reevaluation. Basically the only thing substantial we've changed are body types and that has only assured that we don't get embarrassed by 2nd tier teams like Utah anymore.

As bad as I hate to admit it fans of all elite teams are going to have to live with some games where you just have to light up the scoreboard to win. I do think there may be some exotic formations and schemes that can confuse offenses to a limited extent, but unless you have 4 down linemen that can get into the back field constantly you will give up points to these types of offenses. Bama will dominate even good teams, but elite QB's and WR's are going to give everyone trouble.

Cruloc · Nov 11, 2019

bigjue24 said:
As bad as I hate to admit it fans of all elite teams are going to have to live with some games where you just have to light up the scoreboard to win. I do think there may be some exotic formations and schemes that can confuse offenses to a limited extent, but unless you have 4 down linemen that can get into the back field constantly you will give up points to these types of offenses. Bama will dominate even good teams, but elite QB's and WR's are going to give everyone trouble.

Agree, elite QBs will cause lots of issues even for supposed elite defenses. Unless you have an elite DL, similar to Clemson last year. Similar to how Chip Kelly offenses at Oregon were slowed....penetrating into the backfield before the play can develop, basically blowing it up.

Other than that, no defense can cover WRs that can be thrown open by an elite QB. Tua, Burrow...heck Brees, Brady, Montana etc would have issues with constant pressure. No pressure and good WRs and they all destroy a defense. Even the old 85 Bears D would get torched without disruptive plays caused by penetration into the backfield. Key is elite, healthy DL and pass rushers.

PA Tide Fan · Nov 11, 2019

rgw said:
Also, it is hard to talk about this stuff with perspective on how much success we've had. For better or worse, I tend to spend a lot of time thinking about what we could've done different to win the few we lost. Especially in times like these after a loss when it feels like I'm basically saying the same things about the defense every time now. I can't help but think Saban is handicapping himself with his own NFL-like scheme at this juncture. The execution level required to avoid a day like last Saturday or a night like in early January is just too high for us to pull off with all the attrition of junior early declarations, your typical transfer rates, and injuries. The three best defenses we've had under Saban had a lot of seniors like 2009 (Shula guys who weren't prime NFL prospects), 2011 (Hightower and Barron injuries/recovery leading to them wanting to return), and 2016 (Allen, Williams, Jackson, and Anderson return). We just can't bet on those returning guys anymore.

The only times I can remember in recent years that we shut down a decent passing game was Michigan State with Connor Cook in 2015 and Washington with Jake Browning in 2016. It helped a lot that the coaching staff had a month to prepare for those guys and also the fact that they were pocket passers that were not a big threat to take off and run. Our 2017 team that won it all may have caught a break in the Semifinal game drawing Clemson because Kelly Bryant was not a big passing threat. After watching Georgia's wild game with Oklahoma I'm sure Baker Mayfield would have presented a tremendous challenge for our defense. Then of course in the championship game we had Georgia which we all know is a "run first" team and thus was a good matchup for us.

Cruloc · Nov 11, 2019

Hasnt Saban always run a 3-4 scheme, where the idea is for the DL to eat up blockers so the LBs can make tackles?

How has that scheme translated into this modern spread scheme from offenses? Besides the obvious differences of the sizes of the DL and LBs now in relation to just a few years ago. Slimmer and faster now...to supposedly counter the modern offense.

Above all else though I still believe the key is a disruptive DL. If Q had come back and Moses was playing ILB Saturday, I just dont believe we look as discombobulated...and we get more pressure. Early departures and injuries are huge.

gtgilbert · Nov 11, 2019

Cruloc said:
Hasnt Saban always run a 3-4 scheme, where the idea is for the DL to eat up blockers so the LBs can make tackles?

How has that scheme translated into this modern spread scheme from offenses? Besides the obvious differences of the sizes of the DL and LBs now in relation to just a few years ago. Slimmer and faster now...to supposedly counter the modern offense.

Above all else though I still believe the key is a disruptive DL. If Q had come back and Moses was playing ILB Saturday, I just dont believe we look as discombobulated...and we get more pressure. Early departures and injuries are huge.

that's the scheme he brought to Alabama, but the reality is that we run the nickel packages more often than anything else and it's become our defacto 'base defense'. we even run the dime packages more than we run the 3-4.

KrAzY3 · Nov 11, 2019

Cruloc said:
Agree, elite QBs will cause lots of issues even for supposed elite defenses.

I'm hijacking your reply, apologies but someone posted the RBs and how they played in some of Alabama's big losses and it's a pretty good list. Easy for people to forget, but LSU and Clemson both had really good running backs that played well for instance. So it's not just QBs and that's what Alabama needs to remember as well.

Back to the general point of the topic, I took a look and Alabama gave up points on 5 of 6 LSU possessions following a less than 2 minute offensive drive. Now, you can go three and out and still use 2 minutes, meaning on all those drives Alabama did nothing to burn time off the clock and sent their defense right back out there. You see how well that went. Furthermore, those 5 scores were all first half scores. So, once Alabama started running more and stopped doing that, suddenly the Alabama defense could get some stops. It's not all on the defense.

BamaInBham · Nov 12, 2019

TIDE-HSV said:
I've addressed it elsewhere, but the "thud" method of practice tackling we've been forced to adopt may be coming back to bite us. Two-hand tag doesn't really prepare you for tackling #22 for LSU. OTOH, we simply can't afford any more practice injuries...

But Saban has used the thud method from his beginning at Alabama. Maybe the way they teach it is different but he has never taken the ball carrier to the ground at Alabama, IIRC. Maybe the "softer atmosphere" of today is a contributor. Not only making players more careful in their tackling "attitude" but the coaches putting less emphasis on physicality - consciously or subconsciously. It's tough to be a defensive player today - but the coaches are of course still responsible to do all they can to teach as physical play as the rules allow.

BamaInBham · Nov 12, 2019

rgw said:
Fair enough but we beat 75% or more of the teams we play in February through August. When you narrow it down to only comparisons of "good v. good" situations, our performances look more middling than they did in 2008-2012. The Manziel game in 2012 was a watershed moment because it announced to everyone you didn't need Auburn/Florida talent with a Newton/Tebow QB to pull it off against us. Now nearly everyone other than UGA in the SEC has went in some direction of the spread. Nearly everyone else that is a threat at the national level has done the same.

I just think we defend these offenses worse than other defenses out there with less talent than us. It ain't good for us that LSU has went spread too if they happen to manage to develop QBs now.

I agree that it seems that Bama gets routinely exposed by great offenses. But I'm not seeing the "lesser" talented defenses who are having more consistent success vs great offenses in important games. In fact, I'm not seeing any defenses do this. Who are they ? This is a serious question. Even this defense is #12 nationally according to advanced metrics, SP+, even after the LSU game. Just think of Clemson's D last year, greatly lauded after their win. Bama put up 450 yds on a bad day but just couldn't make any plays in the red zone. IMO, the 2011 Bama D would give 400-500 yards routinely to today's offenses. They played no one with an offensive pulse. Today is a different day. You just have to get the ball back somehow and/or give up FGs vs big time programs with typical offenses. 400-600 yards is the norm. Bama put up 550 yards and 41 points with a gimpy and rusty QB vs the almost unanimous number one team in the country. But that was enough since their O was "on".

I'm not saying that some kind of philosophical or schematic change could not help. But what its it? I would gamble more, but that makes you more susceptible to lesser teams. Bama had 5 sacks and 7 hurries vs a healthy and nimble QB, LSU had 1 sack and 5 hurries vs a rusty and hobbled QB. LSU was just cleaner, with a RB playing with rage. (Bama's RB played the same with different motivations.) It was their day.

Cruloc · Nov 12, 2019

KrAzY3 said:
I'm hijacking your reply, apologies but someone posted the RBs and how they played in some of Alabama's big losses and it's a pretty good list. Easy for people to forget, but LSU and Clemson both had really good running backs that played well for instance. So it's not just QBs and that's what Alabama needs to remember as well.

Back to the general point of the topic, I took a look and Alabama gave up points on 5 of 6 LSU possessions following a less than 2 minute offensive drive. Now, you can go three and out and still use 2 minutes, meaning on all those drives Alabama did nothing to burn time off the clock and sent their defense right back out there. You see how well that went. Furthermore, those 5 scores were all first half scores. So, once Alabama started running more and stopped doing that, suddenly the Alabama defense could get some stops. It's not all on the defense.

Exactly....its not all on the defense, no. Similar to all that said Jalen brought us back vs Clemson in the title game, but the defense couldn't stop Watson on that last drive. Well, if we had converted just a handful of 3rd downs earlier in the game we would have never been in that situation in the first place because the defense wouldn't have had to play 99 plays.

What got us Saturday was the implosion at the end of the first half....Tua was rusty understandably....but I read quotes from Ruggs and Wills basically saying Tua's fumble really threw the team out of sorts and they got down on themselves. This is where those injuries and NFL departures hurt, there's a lack of that guy rallying his teammates I guess. They got down on themselves and didn't really get out of it until the second half.

We forget the defense actually stopped LSU a few times at the beginning of the 2nd half. Turnover first drive, but we did nothing offensively after that turnover. Without the stops we don't make the game close and have a chance.

JustNeedMe81 · Nov 12, 2019

Cruloc said:
The guys had more than a few busts yesterday...and there wasnt consistent pressure on burrow up the middle. When there was his throws werent as accurate.

But....
1. Tuas butter fingers fumble that was just...basically blowing a flat tire on a great opening drive where the lead could have been at least 3-0.
2. Perine not fielding the snap.
3. Interception but 12 men on the field.
4. Down 19-13 with 4 minutes left in the half...good 1st down play...bad 2nd and 3rd..punt. LSU TD.
5. 1st down interception with less than a minute...busted coverage LSU TD.
6. Start 2nd half, get a huge turnover...offense does absolutely nothing after the turnover.
7. Defense got several stops in a row, offense picked up, we were back in the game...but digging out of a huge hole against a very good and focused team.

This pretty much cover the issues we had in the game. Youth and Lack of experience is what caused us to lose game...

rgw · Nov 12, 2019

These teams aren't consistent but TCU and Michigan State deploy schemes that I think are better for attacking the spread. They've punched above their weight class a few times but they have a huge talent deficit compared to their competition and especially us.

At this juncture, stopping teams sometimes when their talent is right is better than what we're doing.

KrAzY3 · Nov 12, 2019

Cruloc said:
EWell, if we had converted just a handful of 3rd downs earlier in the game we would have never been in that situation in the first place because the defense wouldn't have had to play 99 plays.

Yup, once a defense is worn out that's not. They're not going to get stops unless they just get lucky.

Alabama's defenses will always look better when they're not being put in a bad situations.

Padreruf · Nov 12, 2019

Basically we're in a "3rd down" mode in the biggest games. Can we convert 3rd downs and keep drives going? Can we stop the other team on 3rd down and get the defense off the field.

That pretty much sums up whether we win or lose in games where the athletic ability is even.

Cruloc · Nov 12, 2019

Padreruf said:
Basically we're in a "3rd down" mode in the biggest games. Can we convert 3rd downs and keep drives going? Can we stop the other team on 3rd down and get the defense off the field.

That pretty much sums up whether we win or lose in games where the athletic ability is even.

We had a couple of those crucial 3rd downs when we were 1 score down....their RB made a great fingertip catch on one, but still should have been pushed out of bounds before the yard to gain.

With these modern offenses and elite QB's though....man its tough unless you can get pressure.

rgw · Nov 12, 2019

That one hurt because effectively it was well defended up until the point the defender needed to finish the play with a tackle. We lost way too many 1-on-1s last Saturday.

Tenntiderman · Nov 12, 2019

Bama Czar said:
Yep, agreed. IMO, this is caused by the RPO / OL being able to get 3 yards (or sometimes more depending on the officiating) downfield. It makes it nearly impossible for LBs & DBs to play their keys correctly / consistently. They can't commit to play the run too quickly now, making your run support slower (thus, opening the run-game where two yard runs now can more easily turn into 5-6 yard runs). On the other side, if you commit to quickly to the run, slants and a few other routes are much more difficult to defend (or next to impossible).

Of course, these rule changes were put in place because (as in every other sport) it is believed that the average fan only wants to see offense (regardless of sport), and that's how "great" games are measured in public opinion. It is extremely rare for a new rule to ever benefit the defense (in most any sport). It makes football sometimes unbearable for me to watch. The "dumbing-down" of sports in general....

I don't know about you guys...but I used to watch lots of games in other conferences. Now...I mostly pass on those games because everyone looks about the same. Kinda reminds me of when everyone ran the Wishbone. Got extremely boring. I miss good Defense. Sometimes I will pull up an old game from the 70s just to watch our OLs fire off the ball. Our backs rarely broke the long runs..but team execution was crisp in those days. Yeah..I tire quickly of a game that looks more like basketball than football. The OU Spread type of ball is the going thing and I get that. Just have to adjust or find something else to do. I just grew up with a different style.

Question: Has our defense been "modernized" as much as our offense?

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