What is the status of Tua's ankle?

tusks_n_raider said:

Tua is 22-2 as the Starter and has completely rewritten the record books and has 1 NC and 1 SEC Title on his resume.

You really are trying to make HIM the scapegoat????? Seriously????

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No, I'm not, and I've said that over and over again. I'm not even sure how you draw that conclusion given I've said things like: "I'm not complaining about Tua's capabilities, but rather his use.", "we know Tua is the most talented of the group.", "it's not a matter of questioning the tool so much as how well it is used.", " The question then is if he's being most effectively used", "Alabama put too much on an injured Tua's shoulders in the first half", "I do think even a hobbled Tua is the most talented QB Saban has had.". I'm not sure what more I can to do qualify my statements, you read that and you read it as scapegoating Tua, that's not my intention.

I said Alabama put too much on his shoulders. I said Alabama asked him to do too much. I nearly made a thread called "How does Alabama protect Tua" before the start of the season, because I feared Alabama would once again ask him to do too much. I said before Tua ever started you shouldn't be over-reliant on any quarterback. So how does my complaining about over-reliance become about Tua anyway?

I said over and over again in multiple ways that Tua is the most talented Alabama quarterback in years. I'm not sure how else I can put that. I said he should have won the Heisman. That doesn't change the fact though that Alabama puts too much on his shoulders. They did it in the last Georgia game, when he was clearly hurt but they still had him throwing the ball 24 more times, the last Clemson game to some extent, and the last LSU game. Two of those games he was noticeably injured, but did they turn to very talented running backs? Not so much. Josh Jacobs averaged 10.7 per rush against Georgia, but even with a hurt Tua he only got 8 carries. That's not OK, and by further exposing Tua they got him hurt worse. We know he wasn't fully healthy against Clemson, so consider how costly that might actually have been, it could have cost Alabama a championship.

LSU had a gameplan, which consisted of hitting an injured Tua. So in the first half Tua is out there getting hit over and over, and what is the solution? Oh yeah, more of the same. Alabama relied on Tua for 20 of 28 plays in the first half of the LSU game! That's not ok, and that has nothing to do with how good Tua is, you can't put it all on him! Just because he's a great QB isn't an excuse to basically run an offense that's entirely reliant on QB play, especially when said QB is hurt. And I'm in the wrong for pointing that out? I want Tua to have the best possible chance to succeed.

You know what Alabama did different in the second half? They actually didn't overly rely on Tua as much. The ratio was 23 to 15, far better given the context. And guess what? Everything improved, Najee had a big game, because now it wasn't just Tua against LSU, it was Alabama against LSU and that was a bit more fair. Now think of that what you will, but you have to protect Tua and use him properly. I don't understand how someone can think they care about Tua but not care that he's being asked to do too much and in doing so he's also being subject to things like unnecessary hits and unnecessarily difficult situations.

It isn't and never was about how good Tua is. It's about the simple fact that you can't ask a QB to go beat teams by himself. That's too much to ask of anyone, and this will only lead to more Tua getting hit, more Tua being forced into difficult situations. It's not fair to Tua. I want to see Alabama finish strong, and Tua to finish healthy. I don't want to see another first half where Tua is the one who has to make a play over 70% of the time.

Edit: I might as well add an outright apology if anything I said made it seem like I was trying to hold Tua personally responsible.

KrAzY3 said:

No, I'm not, and I've said that over and over again. I'm not even sure how you draw that conclusion given I've said things like: "I'm not complaining about Tua's capabilities, but rather his use.", "we know Tua is the most talented of the group.", "it's not a matter of questioning the tool so much as how well it is used.", " The question then is if he's being most effectively used", "Alabama put too much on an injured Tua's shoulders in the first half", "I do think even a hobbled Tua is the most talented QB Saban has had.". I'm not sure what more I can to do qualify my statements, you read that and you read it as scapegoating Tua, that's not my intention.

I said Alabama put too much on his shoulders. I said Alabama asked him to do too much. I nearly made a thread called "How does Alabama protect Tua" before the start of the season, because I feared Alabama would once again ask him to do too much. I said before Tua ever started you shouldn't be over-reliant on any quarterback. So how does my complaining about over-reliance become about Tua anyway?

I said over and over again in multiple ways that Tua is the most talented Alabama quarterback in years. I'm not sure how else I can put that. I said he should have won the Heisman. That doesn't change the fact though that Alabama puts too much on his shoulders. They did it in the last Georgia game, when he was clearly hurt but they still had him throwing the ball 24 more times, the last Clemson game to some extent, and the last LSU game. Two of those games he was noticeably injured, but did they turn to very talented running backs? Not so much. Josh Jacobs averaged 10.7 per rush against Georgia, but even with a hurt Tua he only got 8 carries. That's not OK, and by further exposing Tua they got him hurt worse. We know he wasn't fully healthy against Clemson, so consider how costly that might actually have been, it could have cost Alabama a championship.

LSU had a gameplan, which consisted of hitting an injured Tua. So in the first half Tua is out there getting hit over and over, and what is the solution? Oh yeah, more of the same. Alabama relied on Tua for 20 of 28 plays in the first half of the LSU game! That's not ok, and that has nothing to do with how good Tua is, you can't put it all on him! Just because he's a great QB isn't an excuse to basically run an offense that's entirely reliant on QB play, especially when said QB is hurt. And I'm in the wrong for pointing that out? I want Tua to have the best possible chance to succeed.

You know what Alabama did different in the second half? They actually didn't overly rely on Tua as much. The ratio was 23 to 15, far better given the context. And guess what? Everything improved, Najee had a big game, because now it wasn't just Tua against LSU, it was Alabama against LSU and that was a bit more fair. Now think of that what you will, but you have to protect Tua and use him properly. I don't understand how someone can think they care about Tua but not care that he's being asked to do too much and in doing so he's also being subject to things like unnecessary hits and unnecessarily difficult situations.

It isn't and never was about how good Tua iss. It's about the simple fact that you can't ask a QB to go beat teams by himself. That's too much to ask of anyone, and this will only lead to more Tua getting hit, more Tua being forced into difficult situations. It's not fair to Tua. I want to see Alabama finish strong, and Tua to finish healthy. I don't want to see another first half where Tua is the one who has to make a play over 70% of the time.

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When you have a defense that is depleted, and an avergae group of runningbacks.... you really have no choice but to make Tua your team. Tua is our defense and our offense, and if he could kick then he would be our special teams. Whether its unfair or not is irrelevant, it is what it is. Until our defense comes back to form and we have better running backs then we are going to be reliant on how many points our qb can put on the board.

81usaf92 said:

an avergae group of runningbacks....

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Dude...
Najee in three seasons averaged 6.1, 6.7, and 6.2. Against Clemson he averaged 6.6. Against LSU he averaged 7.7. I made a thread about it, but every single time he's been given the carries he's performed. The idea that somehow he equates to average is symbolic of the entire problem. What separates him the most from some of the elite backs in the past is the fact that they got more carries. There's probably an alternate reality where Najee has 1,000 rushing yards, Tua is healthy, and Alabama is undefeated. Najee isn't average... but yeah the way he's used sometimes it might seem that way and that's the root of the issue. If there was no one to turn to sure what ever, ride Tua till he breaks down (again). Alabama doesn't have to though.

Saban4Ever said:

I just read that Saban said Tua is a game time decision, just like last week. His ankle is still sore and he has not really practiced yet this week except for a few things.

If he is physically ready I hope he at least plays the 1st quarter.

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I hope its ONLY 1st quarter.

KrAzY3 said:

Dude...
Najee in three seasons averaged 6.1, 6.7, and 6.2. Against Clemson he averaged 6.6. Against LSU he averaged 7.7. I made a thread about it, but every single time he's been given the carries he's performed. The idea that somehow he equates to average is symbolic of the entire problem. What separates him the most from some of the elite backs in the past is the fact that they got more carries. There's probably an alternate reality where Najee has 1,000 rushing yards, Tua is healthy, and Alabama is undefeated. Najee isn't average... but yeah the way he's used sometimes it might seem that way and that's the root of the issue. If there was no one to turn to sure what ever, ride Tua till he breaks down (again). Alabama doesn't have to though.

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Last time I checked a group meant "more than 1". Trey got hurt before the season, and Robinson hasn't been the pile mover that many had hoped for. Najee is the best of our active running backs, but had Josh Jacobs stayed is there any doubt Najee would've been #2?

Even if you want to make this about Najee, then you are going to have to explain why the Greatest Coach of All time isn't running him more in key situations like he didn't in the first half against LSU. A lot of blame seems to go Sark's way, but I remember CNS telling Lane to run Henry midway thru the season after the Arkansas debacle.

TIDE-HSV said:

I don't think this is accurate. I don't think we've been driven to be so Tua-centered. He's just so tempting. The OL is not doing badly. They were more the problem than NH in the earlier part of the season. Najee was the 11th-rated RB by ESPN in 2017. That's not "average"...

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Not sure about ESPN but Najee was #1 or #2 RB and top 10 overall player on 247 and Rivals. He may have been our highest rated player in the 2017 class. And I fully agree Najee is not average.

I follow you on all that KrAzY3....

What Rustled my jimmies is comparing him to past CNS QB's record while saying or insinuating that Tua is responsible for not being 24-0. That his 'Lack or Restraint' is responsible for being 22-2 instead.

I mean Tua is not a "reckless player". I get that he's so great people have adopted unrealistic expectations for him but some stuff is just too much.

He's not 'Brett Farving' it out there and having games where he throws for 250 yards with 1 TD and 4 INT's including 3 Pick 6's because he's just Gun-slinging

In 2017 he had 11 TD's to 2 INT's (5.5:1) ratio
In 2018 he had 43 TD's to 6 INT's (7.2:1) ratio
In 2019 he has 31 TD's to 3 INT's (10.33:1) ratio

His TD to Turnover ratio has IMPROVED year to year.

His Career so far is 85 TD's to 11 INT's (7.73:1)


For Comparison here are the other CNS QB's Ratios

Gmac - 39 TD's to 10 INT's (3.9:1)

AJ McCarron - 77 TD's to 15 INT's (5.1:1)

Blake Sims - 30 TD's to 10 INT's (3:1)

Jake Coker - 25 TD's to 8 INT's (3.1:1)

Jalen Hurts - 48 TD's to 12 INT's (4:1)


So as you can see that even with Tua being relied on more to be a 'Playmaker/Gamechanger' QB he is STILL the BEST at also protecting the ball vs How much he affects the Score Board in a Positive way.....directly.

He doesn't need to be restrained. He's needs better blocking from the OL/TE/RB group and he needs his Defense to start consistently playing in position without confusion and making sound tackles while also not flailing around in the secondary getting abused by opposing receivers....... a PK who would be a reliable 40-45 yards and in FG kicker would help him too.

There a lot of reasons for the 2 losses and Tua is not 100% without any blame at all I admit..... but he's the absolute least of the reasons for not being 24-0.

TIDE-HSV said:

I don't think we've been driven to be so Tua-centered. .

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If there was a point that you can clearly say we lost the game vs LSU, one would be 2nd and 3 with 3 minutes to go in the half down 19-13. We decided two throws instead of running it once. The result of that was a 33-13 halftime instead of an at worst 26-13 halftime. I don't know how that doesn't point to a Tua centered team.




I can agree



Again I said Group not Najee. As an overall group, this isn't one of CNS best.

81usaf92 said:

Even if you want to make this about Najee, then you are going to have to explain why the Greatest Coach of All time isn't running him more in key situations like he didn't in the first half against LSU. A lot of blame seems to go Sark's way, but I remember CNS telling Lane to run Henry midway thru the season after the Arkansas debacle.

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The running game is all about Najee in my opinion (fun fact his career long was actually a 35 yard run in the championship game against Georgia, setting up a field goal that helped keep Alabama in the game), but even then I haven't said give it to him 40 times. The most he's had it was 21 times though, I said elsewhere I think there's a middle ground. I understand this offense won't be like past Alabama offenses, but to reiterate it also shouldn't be Tua 70% of the time, especially given health considerations, especially not in the first half.

As to the blame part, I think Earle stated it about as clearly as anyone. "He's just so tempting". I understand why they use Tua so much, it's like trying not to eat a piece of cake that's just sitting there. You'll also get fat if you eat too much cake. That's one reason I'm not even trying to blame anyone really, just pointing out that it's a problem, but one with a solution.

tusks_n_raider said:

What Rustled my jimmies is comparing him to past CNS QB's record while saying or insinuating that Tua is responsible for not being 24-0. That his 'Lack or Restraint' is responsible for being 22-2 instead.

I mean Tua is not a "reckless player". I get that he's so great people have adopted unrealistic expectations for him but some stuff is just too much.

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I can start with this thought experiment. If we took Tua and put him directly into the situations faced by previous Alabama quarterbacks, and asked him to do exactly what they were asked to do, does he lose any games? I'm not sure, the only issue might be running, so if he did exactly what Hurts was asked to do he might have ended up getting injured on running plays. Other than that though, what did GMac, AJ, or Coker do that Tua can't? Nothing right, we'd all agree that if you just plopped him down on those teams and asked of him no more than was asked of them, he might never lose. What if you tried to turn those offenses in to this one though?

That's the point I was making when I referenced the records. This is a quarterback that's so good he'll never be in a situation like GMac was, where he had Cam Newton facing him, or Coker had where he had to go up against Watson. Tua is never going to be at a deficiency relative to another college quarterback (when he's healthy). To that end, if he is utilized in such a way that maximizes his effectiveness, there's almost no way to beat him.

There is a way to beat him though and LSU focused on that. Get to the quarterback, get him banged up, try to take advantage of a one dimensional Alabama offense. Now, the term restraint, and I've apologized already if anything I said made it seem like a personal attack on Tua, but the term restraint is relevant here. It's about context though. Tua needs to be restrained, but that's not Tua's job necessarily. That's the coaches job. I was actually as if not more frustrated by Tua's runs in the first half. He was already hurt, one cost the team points, he almost got hurt worse on one, none ended well. You have to restrain him, to get the point across that he has no business running in those situations. You have running backs, Tua's too important to be exposing himself in that way.

You brought up turnovers and I've gone over those stats before. They go up in big games (2.3 ratio) partly because the top teams know Alabama is going to ask Tua to do a lot, and Tua's rating goes down accordingly. It's not entirely fair to fixate one a single play, but it does illustrate the sort of thing that could be avoided. Alabama sends Tua out there, obviously with some sort of a green light (Saban said he'd taken a knee if he had it to do over again, so clearly that's not what they told Tua to do) with seconds to go in the second half. The issue is by all appearances Tua wasn't properly restrained. They allowed him to run a play, and that's alright. What they apparently didn't do is say you simply can't throw it in the middle of the field. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should and in that situation you shouldn't. I'm not sure there's another Alabama QB that Alabama would have even put in that situation. I'm not sure I can recall another Saban QB that was asked to make 70% of the plays in the first half of a big game, much less one that was hurt.

The simplest way I see to deal with this though is just to take some of the pressure off Tua. By making it all about him, the pressure is always there for him to make a big play and that's asking too much, it's taking a physical toll if nothing else. I also used the term unleashed before, and that's the opposite of restraining. There are times when you need to unleash Tua, but there are also times you need to protect him.

As to Tua’s ankle, Suttles stated on JOX today that he senses Tua will not see the field on Saturday. Nothing confirmed, just “reading between the lines” when it comes to some comments of those around the program.

CB4 said:

As to Tua’s ankle, Suttles stated on JOX today that he senses Tua will not see the field on Saturday. Nothing confirmed, just “reading between the lines” when it comes to some comments of those around the program.

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That's a very interesting scenario, and I wonder how that would play out with the committee. On one hand, it would be a reminder that Tua was hurt for the LSU game and that's supposed to count, on the other it could slow Alabama's offense down a bit and prevent the kind of blowout that would help Alabama look impressive.

KrAzY3 said:

That's a very interesting scenario, and I wonder how that would play out with the committee. On one hand, it would be a reminder that Tua was hurt for the LSU game and that's supposed to count, on the other it could slow Alabama's offense down a bit and prevent the kind of blowout that would help Alabama look impressive.

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I don't think that would matter too much if we get a solid (say by 10 points) win by our backup qb. I think Mac can at least accomplish that.

If Tua sits out the MSU game then there's absolutely no point in playing him against WC either. I expect we'll see him next in the IB.

Tua will play against WC so he wont be rusty vs au like he was in the first half vs lsu.

I think you're right...I think he'll play the 1st 1/2-v-The Catamounts.

TUSCALOOSAHONOR said:

Tua will play against WC so he wont be rusty vs au like he was in the first half vs lsu.

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CB4 said:

As to Tua’s ankle, Suttles stated on JOX today that he senses Tua will not see the field on Saturday. Nothing confirmed, just “reading between the lines” when it comes to some comments of those around the program.

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Could be......... but I bet he gets “some” work to keep him sharp........

KrAzY3 said:

That's a very interesting scenario, and I wonder how that would play out with the committee. On one hand, it would be a reminder that Tua was hurt for the LSU game and that's supposed to count, on the other it could slow Alabama's offense down a bit and prevent the kind of blowout that would help Alabama look impressive.

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Funny you say that. It was the very next topic the guys discussed after Suttles made that statement. The committee can and does take that into consideration.

MSU is a team that blitzes 50% of the time according to Saban. If Tua is more sore than they expected after the LSU game, the decision to not play him may be more precautionary and assumes that Mac Jones can get the job done.

I saw that practice video everyone else has...Tua has no business being on the field, he had a very noticeable limp. Rest him, let him get well as best he can....let Mac take on MSU, WCU....then see how Tua is the week of Auburn.

Then the playoff committee also then sees that Tua came back for LSU, did well, then sat til Auburn. They are supposed to take into account injuries, so there ya go committee.