You Make the Call - Sept 5

tidehawk · Sep 5, 2007

Sorry I'm a day late:

Team Black punts from the 50 yd line and the deep back for Team White gives a fair catch signal at the 10 yd line. He muffs the ball and it bounces toward White's end zone. The deep back picks up the ball at the 1 yd line and his momentum carries him into the end zone where he is tackled. What should the ruling on this play be?

cbi1972 · Sep 5, 2007

Since he never had possession, I guess I'd spot it at the 1.

TideAlum · Sep 5, 2007

Ball is placed at the 1 yard line.

bama119 · Sep 5, 2007

Tough one, my guess is since his own momentum carried him in the endzone a safety. Just like if he picked up the ball at the ten yard line and his momentum carried him back to the five yard line and was tackled. The ball would be at the five. Let's see if I can be correct two weeks in a row.

wisten · Sep 5, 2007

I am probably wrong, but thinking it would be a touchback. Ball on 20.

ClovisT · Sep 5, 2007

I think in high school that would actually be ruled as a touchback.

NYBamaFan · Sep 5, 2007

Either down at the one or touchback. tidehawk usually has some obscure HS rule up his sleeve, and I am thinking that, in HS, the ball might be dead on the field of play once recovered, regardless of momentum. I am thinking down at the one, but logic would have it a touchback. Can you advance a muff in HS?

Either way, I can't see it as a safety as his momentum carried him into the endzone.

ih8auburn · Sep 5, 2007

Because momemtum carried him into the endzone, it is a touchback.

KanBama · Sep 5, 2007

Several different way this could be seen.

1] the ball is placed at the 10 yrd line since that is where he made the fair catch call.................... not likely.

2] the ball is placed at the 1 yrd line where he touched it.......... not likely

3] if he was on his knees when he landed it will be a touch back and the ball is placed on the 20 yrd line........ likely to be the call.

4] he falls on it in the end zone and the return team falls on him. safety........
most likely to be the call.

Bama Lee · Sep 5, 2007

Since his own momentum carried him into the endzone, it is a safety. If the defendes had knocked him back into the endzone, it would be a touchback.

tidehawk · Sep 5, 2007

NY, the rule that applies to this situation is not obscure at all. Read the situation carefully and think about everything that has happened during the live ball.

NYBamaFan · Sep 5, 2007

tidehawk said:
NY, the rule that applies to this situation is not obscure at all. Read the situation carefully and think about everything that has happened during the live ball.

The momentum rule applies in HS sports, so it wouldn't be a safety. The ball was muffed at the ten, but not recovered until the 1, so the momentum rule applies - and possession was established on the field of play, not in the endzone.

Okay, so I am going to stick with my call that the ref should have dropped the beanbag at the point that the ball was recovered (the 1) and the ball should be marked at that spot. No touchback. No safety. Had the momentum of the kick, even after the muff, carried the ball all of the way into the endzone, then it would have been a touchback. That didn't happen. It was recovered at the 1.

I assume this because I am thinking of it like an interception that is established on the field, but whose momentum carries the intercepting player into the endzone - but the kick rules might change things...

bamajake · Sep 5, 2007

Actually, there are two rules that may have application. The first is the momentum rule. When a kick receiver gains possession of a kick inside of his 5 yard line and his momentum carries him into the end zone and he is downed in the end zone, the ball is spotted at the point that he gained possession, i.e., the 1 yard line. If he gains possession in the field of play and his momentum carries him into the end zone, he can run the ball out if he wants to. The second rule that comes into play is what prevents a return in this case. The white deep back signalled for a fair catch at the ten. When a player signals for a fair catch, neither that player nor any of his teammates can advance the ball, it is dead when possession is gained. As a result, the ball is dead at the 1 yard line when he gained possession.

bamajake · Sep 5, 2007

NYBamaFan, you are exactly right about the momentum rule. It is the same for an interception and for a kick. As a matter of fact, it is the same for a fumble. The key is that the defender or receiver gains possession inside of his own five yard line and his momentum carries him into the end zone. By the way, if he tries to return the kick or interception and leaves the end zone and then circles back into the end zone and is tackled, it is then a safety.

tidehawk · Sep 5, 2007

NY, your thinking is right on par. You are correct in your thoughts on the momentum rule. However, overriding that is the fact that a fair catch signal was given. Possession was gained at the 1 yd line, so you are right - the covering official should bean bag the spot where possession was gained and it would be White's ball on the 1 yd line.

Several of you brought up momentum - there are lots of situations where momentum plays a part in spotting the ball inside the 5 yd line. We could talk about momentum for a LONG time. If momentum carries a player into his own end zone, most if not all of the time it will not result in any kind of scoring. Momentum is one of the more tricky areas that officials have to deal with in calling a game. Most of the time whether a safety or touchback is scored depends on who put the ball in the end zone - however, when the momentum rule is in effect, that is not the case.

jake, we had a situation come up on Friday night that I wanted to get your opinion on. We were in Montgomery calling a game that was very close. Toward the end of the game, the visiting team was near the home team band. On third and fourth down, the home band played very loud, not a song but basically noise for distraction. I went to our white hat and asked him if we needed to stop play and direct home management to direct the band to stop playing. He stated that he did not think that the band playing was in the rule book anywhere. However, band or not I felt it was in the best interest of the fairness of the game to allow the visitors to hear the snap count. Any thoughts?

NYBamaFan · Sep 5, 2007

tidehawk said:
NY, your thinking is right on par. You are correct in your thoughts on the momentum rule. However, overriding that is the fact that a fair catch signal was given. Possession was gained at the 1 yd line, so you are right - the covering official should bean bag the spot where possession was gained and it would be White's ball on the 1 yd line.

Even if there had been no fair catch signal, it would still have been spotted at the 1, right?

Jref · Sep 5, 2007

tidehawk said:
jake, we had a situation come up on Friday night that I wanted to get your opinion on. We were in Montgomery calling a game that was very close. Toward the end of the game, the visiting team was near the home team band. On third and fourth down, the home band played very loud, not a song but basically noise for distraction. I went to our white hat and asked him if we needed to stop play and direct home management to direct the band to stop playing. He stated that he did not think that the band playing was in the rule book anywhere. However, band or not I felt it was in the best interest of the fairness of the game to allow the visitors to hear the snap count. Any thoughts?

If the band is in the stands, I wouldn't do anything about it. It's no different than a crowd of fans making noise to rattle the visiting team.

bamajake · Sep 5, 2007

First of all, NYBamaFan you are right. If there had been no fair catch signal the ball would have still been spotted at the 1 yard line if the receiver was tackled in the end zone.

Tidehawk, I don't know of any rule in the book regarding bands playing. The only possible reason I can come up with for stopping the band is the unfair acts rule. Rule 9-9-1 says, "A player or nonplayer or person not subject to the rules shall not hinder play by an unfair act which has no specific rules coverage." I don't know of many referees who would put the band's "music" in this category as long as they stay in the stands to play. If there are band members on the sidelines and they are directing the music toward the field and it is obvious that they are trying to affect play, I would probably go to the head coach and game management and tell them it has to stop. If they didn't stop, I would have them removed from the sidelines.

In the past, bands did not play when the teams were lined up and ready for the snap. If they start doing this and coaches complain, I would expect that either AHSAA or the National Federation would consider a rules change to prevent it from happening.

tidehawk · Sep 5, 2007

Thanks for the info, jake. And yes, NY, the ball would be on the 1 yd line due to the momentum rule.

edwd58 · Sep 5, 2007

Well, if the rules don't cover the band playing, will someone please tell the referee association that covers the Selma area? The past two times Prattville has been there, our band has been flagged for 15 yard penalties for playing while the Selma team was in possession of the ball! Not once, but twice. And no, there was no other reason for the penalties, no comments from the sidelines or players on the field. In fact, the head referee sent word to Coach that he would throw a flag everytime the band played while the (other) team was calling signals.

Of course, through the years we have seen some strange rules interpretations while in Selma. I guess we've come to expect them!

On a humorous side note, it isn't restricted to the referees. One evening the PA guy announced a Prattville first down on the 55 yard line!

You Make the Call - Sept 5

HS Moderator

Hall of Fame

1st Team

1st Team

Hall of Fame

New Member

Suspended

BamaNation Citizen

All-American

All-American

HS Moderator

Suspended

1st Team

1st Team

HS Moderator

Suspended

1st Team

1st Team

HS Moderator

All-American

TideFans.shop - NEW Stuff!