Should we have an IQ test for right to vote?

Mamacalled

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On average, yes--people who have masters or doctorate degrees are generally smarter than those who don't.


A horrible attempt at deflection, considering the generational differences in postgraduate education. Also, your uncited study is hardly a scientific sampling of different educational levels, and is thus irrelevant.
This rhetoric from the left is laughable. Evry election thay paint the conservative as a dummy and the dem candidate is something so much more brilliant. Now you are going to continue the arrogance and say that those who vote dem are smarter than those who vote conservative. Tyopical drivel.

I guess that those of us that have not went on to grad school should just follow grad students blindly because of thier superior knowledge.
 

CrimsonCT

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This rhetoric from the left is laughable. Evry election thay paint the conservative as a dummy and the dem candidate is something so much more brilliant. Now you are going to continue the arrogance and say that those who vote dem are smarter than those who vote conservative. Tyopical drivel.
Hardly rhetoric. I know facts are difficult for you to accept, but they're all posted in the tables above. I guess that reality has a well-known liberal bias, right?

I guess that those of us that have not went on to grad school should just follow grad students blindly because of thier superior knowledge.
Oh please, it's a general rule. Sure, there are some 2* and 3* football recruits who turn into studs. But I'll take a team of 4* and 5* any day of the week.
 

Mamacalled

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Hardly rhetoric. I know facts are difficult for you to accept, but they're all posted in the tables above. I guess that reality has a well-known liberal bias, right?


Oh please, it's a general rule. Sure, there are some 2* and 3* football recruits who turn into studs. But I'll take a team of 4* and 5* any day of the week.
The chart that you have posted above does nothing to support that the Dem candidate is more intelligent than the Rep candidate.
 

TRUTIDE

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I didn't see this addressed, so I figured I'd go ahead and dispel this myth. The most recent polls just show the nation's recent lean towards Obama. But look back to when the two were posting similar overall numbers and you'll see that the "HS or less" category was basically within the margin of error. The telling number is the distribution of postgrads, which have hugely favored Obama since day one.

I think that what is being referenced here is more of a government IQ test. Knowing who is running for different offices what their stances are on different issues. We are not taliking somebody's ability to get into a certain college, it is more of a question of whether they are able to cast an informed vote.

The country is made up of many diiferent types of people who have gained experience in different ways. It would certainly be a mistake to only allow the highly educated the right to vote but I think that we would all exercise our right much better if we were informed voters.

We could argue education standards all day long. College compared to other college, college graduate compared to self-made entrepreneur or someone with military service. I think the key word here is informed voter not educated voter.

I would even move the age limit up to 21 for anyone not serving in the military.
 

Giant Squid

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The chart that you have posted above does nothing to support that the Dem candidate is more intelligent than the Rep candidate.
Imagine that I introduced you to someone you had never known before. Then, I told you that this person had accomplished the following things in life:

- Columbia U. graduate
- President of Harvard Law Review
- Magna cum laude graduate of Harvard Law School
- Published author
- Senior lecturer on constitutional law at U. Chicago Law School
- Practicing attorney for several years

If you're anything like me, you would assume that this person is more intelligent than about 99% of the other people walking around. McCain is a very intelligent person who has my respect, but I doubt that very many people are an intellectual match for Obama. (I suppose I need to add that very few people would have been an intellectual match for William F. Buckley Jr., or would be today for Henry Kissinger, etc.)

On the main topic, IQ tests to vote are an insanely horrible idea. I doubt that anyone who has studied the history of voter tests in America (How many bubbles come from a bar of soap?) can support it.
 

CrimsonCT

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I think that what is being referenced here is more of a government IQ test. Knowing who is running for different offices what their stances are on different issues. We are not taliking somebody's ability to get into a certain college, it is more of a question of whether they are able to cast an informed vote.
Well that's the exact accusation to which I responded, actually. Higher education was specifically mentioned to favor McCain, and I aimed to show differently.

I agree with the rest of your post, though. Experience is the ultimate teacher, and can come from many places beyond the classroom. I'm not arguing anything other than what I mentioned above, however, and I do not think that any kind of "voter test" can be administered in a fair enough way to make this a reasonable idea. It has a certain kind of intellectual merit, but I can't see how it would succeed practically.
 

TRUTIDE

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Public schools tend to be lame because there is usually a lack of incentive to be otherwise. Governments and unions do not serve the customer (students), they serve themselves. Property owners have to fund public schools; schools don't have to compete for patronage like the private sector does. Public schools coddle poorly performing students, teachers and administrators.

Private schools are generally very good. (After paying for public schools, why would anyone pay extra to go a bad private school?) They are many in the DC area that are pipelines to the elite universities. And they have to complete with each other for students (and money). Competition (among students, teachers, administrators, etc.) is a wonderful thing.
I think you are "generally" correct in your comparisons partically in DC. I moved to an area years ago that was in the process of building many new schools to catch up with the population growth. I have compared local public schools in my area with local private schools and draw a far more favorable comparison. I know the principals at the public schools and many of the teachers. The public schools in my area are as good as the area private schools. My kids have been invited to attend some private schools but we are more than happy in the school system our kids will be in throughout their education. I realize that this is the exception, not the rule. I think that public schools (as a whole) are in much worse shape than private schools. I can go 30 miles in several directions from my house and be in pretty dire circumstances. I attended both private and public schools growing up and feel that the better education was offered at the private schools.

It seems that the bad public schools often have the worst teachers. It also seems that the better principals/teachers in the public school system flock to the newer schools in the better areas of town.
 

Mamacalled

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Dec 4, 2000
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Imagine that I introduced you to someone you had never known before. Then, I told you that this person had accomplished the following things in life:

- Columbia U. graduate
- President of Harvard Law Review
- Magna cum laude graduate of Harvard Law School
- Published author
- Senior lecturer on constitutional law at U. Chicago Law School
- Practicing attorney for several years

If you're anything like me, you would assume that this person is more intelligent than about 99% of the other people walking around. McCain is a very intelligent person who has my respect, but I doubt that very many people are an intellectual match for Obama. (I suppose I need to add that very few people would have been an intellectual match for William F. Buckley Jr., or would be today for Henry Kissinger, etc.)

On the main topic, IQ tests to vote are an insanely horrible idea. I doubt that anyone who has studied the history of voter tests in America (How many bubbles come from a bar of soap?) can support it.
What makes one assume that Obama is so much more intelligent? Are you proving my point about the arrogance of the left by assuming that their candidates are always more intelligent than the rights?
Obama speaks well when in front of a teleprompter. He has proven that he has no grasp of what it takes to run a business. He has no grasp of economics. Why do you assume that he is this all so superior human being? Book smarts does not mean much in the real world.
 
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Giant Squid

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Here's a little story I use when discussing the whole public versus private school debate.

Two football coaches were preparing for the season.

Coach Public was given 65 kids at random. These kids were sent to Coach Public because it was the law that they had to play football somewhere. Some of them were good players, but some were very poor. Some had no interest in football at all. Some of them did not know what a football was. Some of them came from households where their parents did not care about football, had never encouraged their kids to exercise, and would not encourage their kids to become good football players in any way.

Coach Private was given 65 kids who had specifically requested to be on his team. These kids had parents who were willing to pay thousands of dollars for top notch football instruction. Some were better players than others, but all of them had parents who cared enough about football to spend serious money on it. All of them at least knew what football was. Almost all of their parents had been successful athletes themselves, and had passed on good genetics and exercise habits to their kids. These parents placed a great deal of emphasis on football success.

At the end of the year, everyone was amazed that Coach Private had a better record.

Here is the critical question: Is Coach Private good enough coach that he could switch teams with Coach Public and still win championships?
 

TRUTIDE

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Oct 14, 1999
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Imagine that I introduced you to someone you had never known before. Then, I told you that this person had accomplished the following things in life:

- Columbia U. graduate
- President of Harvard Law Review
- Magna cum laude graduate of Harvard Law School
- Published author
- Senior lecturer on constitutional law at U. Chicago Law School
- Practicing attorney for several years

If you're anything like me, you would assume that this person is more intelligent than about 99% of the other people walking around. McCain is a very intelligent person who has my respect, but I doubt that very many people are an intellectual match for Obama. (I suppose I need to add that very few people would have been an intellectual match for William F. Buckley Jr., or would be today for Henry Kissinger, etc.)

On the main topic, IQ tests to vote are an insanely horrible idea. I doubt that anyone who has studied the history of voter tests in America (How many bubbles come from a bar of soap?) can support it.
Well, according to your reasoning, George W Bush must rate pretty high on your intelligence scale. What you describe here is intelligence gained from a book and not from life experience.

I think that there are many different ways to gauge intelligence. It really depends on what end result you are looking for. Sucess? Money? Inventions? Test Scores? Leadership? Why is Harvard a prerequisite for any of these?

IMO, McCain has gained much more intelligence from life experiences than anyone caould from books.
 

Mamacalled

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Dec 4, 2000
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Pelham, Al
Here's a little story I use when discussing the whole public versus private school debate.

Two football coaches were preparing for the season.

Coach Public was given 65 kids at random. These kids were sent to Coach Public because it was the law that they had to play football somewhere. Some of them were good players, but some were very poor. Some had no interest in football at all. Some of them did not know what a football was. Some of them came from households where their parents did not care about football, had never encouraged their kids to exercise, and would not encourage their kids to become good football players in any way.

Coach Private was given 65 kids who had specifically requested to be on his team. These kids had parents who were willing to pay thousands of dollars for top notch football instruction. Some were better players than others, but all of them had parents who cared enough about football to spend serious money on it. All of them at least knew what football was. Almost all of their parents had been successful athletes themselves, and had passed on good genetics and exercise habits to their kids. These parents placed a great deal of emphasis on football success.

At the end of the year, everyone was amazed that Coach Private had a better record.

Here is the critical question: Is Coach Private good enough coach that he could switch teams with Coach Public and still win championships?
Is he coach Bryant?
 

Mamacalled

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Dec 4, 2000
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Pelham, Al
Imagine that I introduced you to someone you had never known before. Then, I told you that this person had accomplished the following things in life:

- Columbia U. graduate
- President of Harvard Law Review
- Magna cum laude graduate of Harvard Law School
- Published author
- Senior lecturer on constitutional law at U. Chicago Law School
- Practicing attorney for several years

If you're anything like me, you would assume that this person is more intelligent than about 99% of the other people walking around. McCain is a very intelligent person who has my respect, but I doubt that very many people are an intellectual match for Obama. (I suppose I need to add that very few people would have been an intellectual match for William F. Buckley Jr., or would be today for Henry Kissinger, etc.)

On the main topic, IQ tests to vote are an insanely horrible idea. I doubt that anyone who has studied the history of voter tests in America (How many bubbles come from a bar of soap?) can support it.
I would like to add, how many people that you went to school with that had straight As. How many of them have failed in life? Most of the sucessful people that I know were B, C type students. Many of the straight A students went on the be drug addicts, are still finding ways to go to school and get their tength degree in something because it is easier than working with all of the pressure of running a business or they teach.
 

Giant Squid

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Aug 6, 2006
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What makes one assume that Obama is so much more intelligent?
I would be extremely impressed by anyone who had accomplished the following:

- Columbia U. graduate
- President of Harvard Law Review
- Magna cum laude graduate of Harvard Law School
- Published author
- Senior lecturer on constitutional law at U. Chicago Law School
- Practicing attorney for several years

Are you proving my point about the arrogance of the left by assuming that their candidates are always more intelligent than the rights?
Not at all, because I never said that. Bush Sr. was probably more intelligent than Dukakis, and Goldwater was probably smarter than Johnson, for example. I thought I would have put that to bed by talking about some of the obviously brilliant people in Conservatism, but I guess not.

Obama speaks well when in front of a teleprompter.
Oh, I think he might have a few more intellectual/political skills than that, based on his track record. (Referenced above.)

He has proven that he has no grasp of what it takes to run a business. He has no grasp of economics.
No, he just has economic policies that you disagree with. Then again, I'm betting that you also don't think much of Paul Krugman, the 2008 Nobel Prize winner in economics. There are many people who have ideas that I disagree with but are clearly brilliant people anyway. I don't have a PhD. in economics, so I don't pretend to be the arbiter of strong economic policy.

Why do you assume that he is this all so superior human being? Book smarts does not mean much in the real world.
If you aren't impressed by anything that Obama has accomplished, then you and I are just impressed by different things. I'd say they've brought Obama some real world success so far, and I've always found them pretty useful when it comes to figuring out complex issues.
 

Giant Squid

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Well, according to your reasoning, George W Bush must rate pretty high on your intelligence scale.
I don't think GWB is stupid. I think he's a bright guy who has made some really bad decisions.

What you describe here is intelligence gained from a book and not from life experience.
I didn't think anyone would be that impressed with his time as a community organizer and his cases as a lawyer. Is it now impossible to gain "life experience" while getting your education or while educating others? I've learned an awful lot of life lessons doing both.

I think that there are many different ways to gauge intelligence. It really depends on what end result you are looking for. Sucess? Money? Inventions? Test Scores? Leadership? Why is Harvard a prerequisite for any of these?
You're absolutely right. I'm just arguing that Obama has accomplished some very impressive things, and he has translated his potential into success in different areas.

Harvard isn't a prerequisite for intelligence at all, but I'm willing to defend the notion that graduating with honors from Harvard law after being named editor in chief of the law review is an extremely impressive intellectual feat.

IMO, McCain has gained much more intelligence from life experiences than anyone caould from books.
McCain is obviously a very intelligent person who has learned a ton from his experiences.

Why does it have to be one or the other? You can point out people who were academically talented but failed at life just like I can point out people who have had a ton of life experience but are too stupid to balance a checkbook. We need someone who has a mix of both, but "book smarts" are nothing to be ashamed of. The world needs "policy wonks", diplomats, theoriticians, etc. to keep things running.
 

Mamacalled

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I don't think GWB is stupid. I think he's a bright guy who has made some really bad decisions.



I didn't think anyone would be that impressed with his time as a community organizer and his cases as a lawyer. Is it now impossible to gain "life experience" while getting your education or while educating others? I've learned an awful lot of life lessons doing both.



You're absolutely right. I'm just arguing that Obama has accomplished some very impressive things, and he has translated his potential into success in different areas.

Harvard isn't a prerequisite for intelligence at all, but I'm willing to defend the notion that graduating with honors from Harvard law after being named editor in chief of the law review is an extremely impressive intellectual feat.



McCain is obviously a very intelligent person who has learned a ton from his experiences.

Why does it have to be one or the other? You can point out people who were academically talented but failed at life just like I can point out people who have had a ton of life experience but are too stupid to balance a checkbook. We need someone who has a mix of both, but "book smarts" are nothing to be ashamed of. The world needs "policy wonks", diplomats, theoriticians, etc. to keep things running.
GS,
After rereading your post, I will recant some of what I posted. I had just got through working 14 hours and was sitting in my office and I did not take in the whole of your post.
Yes, Obama is an intellegent man. academically he has accomplished alot which has led to his position of running for president. I however feel that has has very little experience that would qualify him for the President of the U.S.
I am not a supporter of wealth distribution as he is. I have worked very hard to come from what many would call a disadvantaged background. Personally, I feel that it was an advantage for me as it motivated me to want to accomplish more in life than what I was given early on. I own a small business and have already felt the negative effects of of legislation that Obama has supported. His plan for America will hamper our ability to recover economically if passed. I will not say that it will not recover but that it will slow the rate at which we will recover.
Take Care
 

Tidewater

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I didn't see this addressed, so I figured I'd go ahead and dispel this myth.
One data point hardly dispels what you refer to as "a myth."
If you notice, Obama lead McCain in almost every category.
In an election in which the first credible African-American candidate is running, in which the media has lavished praise on the man without restraint (and frequently without supporting research), and in which the economy is tanking and Republicans are getting the blame, it is hardly surprising that Obama would have the lead.
Back in 1992, when a white southern Democrat was running against a white New England Republican, the same demographics showed a majority of high school drop outs supported Clinton. Those with HS diplomas supported Clinton, by a narrower margin. Those with some college supported Bush, those with BAs or BSs supported Bush by a wide margin, those with post-grade degrees supported Bush by a wider margin. PhDs tended to support Clinton. The leftward lean of the professoriate is hardly news to those who have been conscious since the mid-1960s.
So, with the exception of PhDs, the more educated, the more likely to support the Republican.
Eliminating the bottom quintile of the electorate (in terms of education, IQ, knowledge of civics, economics or the candidates positions) would disproportionately reduce Democrat voting, which is why you would hear Democrats crying like rats eating onions if this were to be seriously proposed.
 

gmart74

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Just because someone has a PhD from MIT on astrophysics does not mean he is well-educated in politics, civics or politicians beliefs.

Also people with higher degrees have spent an inordinate amount of their lives in school systems which tend to promote a more liberal or democrat leaning environment. We are herd creatures, democrats tend to surround themselves with democrats, repubs with repubs, Muslims with Muslims etc etc. Schools have been enclaves for democrats for some time now. It is amazing how many college democrats become republicans once they get out and are not brainwashed by a daily barrage of left leaning rhetoric.

So this whole notion of democrats on average having higher degrees therefore they are smarter is actually just wrong. On top of that it is irrelevant to the political IQ of the voters.
 

Ldlane

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Here's a little story I use when discussing the whole public versus private school debate.

Two football coaches were preparing for the season.

Coach Public was given 65 kids at random. These kids were sent to Coach Public because it was the law that they had to play football somewhere. Some of them were good players, but some were very poor. Some had no interest in football at all. Some of them did not know what a football was. Some of them came from households where their parents did not care about football, had never encouraged their kids to exercise, and would not encourage their kids to become good football players in any way.

Coach Private was given 65 kids who had specifically requested to be on his team. These kids had parents who were willing to pay thousands of dollars for top notch football instruction. Some were better players than others, but all of them had parents who cared enough about football to spend serious money on it. All of them at least knew what football was. Almost all of their parents had been successful athletes themselves, and had passed on good genetics and exercise habits to their kids. These parents placed a great deal of emphasis on football success.

At the end of the year, everyone was amazed that Coach Private had a better record.

Here is the critical question: Is Coach Private good enough coach that he could switch teams with Coach Public and still win championships?
Good one. Private schools can discriminate and it has nothing to do with "merit". It mainly has to do with money. Public schools have to teach any student that walks through the door. Private schools don't, they can turn them away.
 

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