Game Thread: 2021 AFC and NFC Championship Games (1/30/22)

81usaf92

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He is the GOAT and it is not debatable. Though some will refuse to stop banging their heads on that brick wall.

No, not a bad career at all.
Yeah Rob Parker has already wrote his garbage yesterday. But it’s hard to call Brady should be labeled a cheater when you are saying Barry Bonds is the greatest baseball player to ever live in the same breath. It’s also hard to take someone seriously who calls Hank Aaron a coward as well.

Brady is the GOAT to me and to most. If you want to use certain variables or measurements to say otherwise then fine, just be consistent. I think Brady’s selflessness and determination put him above all others.
 
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B1GTide

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Yeah Rob Parker has already wrote his garbage yesterday. But it’s hard to call Brady should be labeled a cheater when you are saying Barry Bonds is the greatest baseball player to ever live in the same breath. It’s also hard to take someone seriously who calls Hank Aaron a coward as well.

Brady is the GOAT to me and to most. If you want to use certain variables or measurements to say otherwise then fine, just be consistent. I think Brady’s selflessness and determination put him above all others.
Hmm, just like some refuse to accept Belichick as thr GOAT of NFL head coaches.
 
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TideEngineer08

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Yeah Rob Parker has already wrote his garbage yesterday. But it’s hard to call Brady should be labeled a cheater when you are saying Barry Bonds is the greatest baseball player to ever live in the same breath. It’s also hard to take someone seriously who calls Hank Aaron a coward as well.

Brady is the GOAT to me and to most. If you want to use certain variables or measurements to say otherwise then fine, just be consistent. I think Brady’s selflessness and determination put him above all others.
Yeah like many things today, we throw words out carelessly and they lose their meaning.

Brady is a "cheater" because of what? The deflated balls? If anyone seriously thinks that alone is why Brady has had such a magnificent career, then they need to be checked out for lead poisoning.

The Barry Bonds angle is a decent angle, but I'd argue his steroid usage had a much larger impact on his career than air pressure did for Brady. Still, Bonds was a HOF'er just based on his pre-roid career so yeah, Parker's take is inconsistent and stupid.
 

selmaborntidefan

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I've said time and again I'm reluctant to ever say anyone is the "greatest of all-time" at anything (except perhaps Wayne Gretzky in hockey), preferring either "greatest of his time" or "among the all-time greats."

But this one - greatest NFL quarterback - this one is retired for the forseeable future. I'm willing to throw in on this because this guy did stuff nobody did and for a long, long time. I would still probably take both Montana and Elway over him if you needed a game-winning drive with limited time, but everything points in this guy's direction clearly.

In the NBA, it's probably Jordan, but you can make a good case for several players, including Russell, Abdul-Jabbar, Chamberlain, and LeBron among others.

But as a reminder - "X rings," which are a TEAM accomplishment are simply secondary accouterments to the other stuff. They're where you END the argument, not where you start it.
 
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81usaf92

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I've said time and again I'm reluctant to ever say anyone is the "greatest of all-time" at anything (except perhaps Wayne Gretzky in hockey), preferring either "greatest of his time" or "among the all-time greats."

But this one - greatest NFL quarterback - this one is retired for the forseeable future. I'm willing to throw in on this because this guy did stuff nobody did and for a long, long time. I would still probably take both Montana and Elway over him if you needed a game-winning drive with limited time, but everything points in this guy's direction clearly.

In the NBA, it's probably Jordan, but you can make a good case for several players, including Russell, Abdul-Jabbar, Chamberlain, and LeBron among others.

But as a reminder - "X rings," which are a TEAM accomplishment are simply secondary accouterments to the other stuff. They're where you END the argument, not where you start it.
The only Greatest of all time I’m willing to say isn’t debatable by any metric is Nick Saban. There is no equal and it’s unbiasedly so. The guy survives every seismic change in college football.

The problem with GOAT debates is that we are arguing around generations. I mean people regularly say Jerry Rice is the GOAT and so is Deion.

Why not Belichick… He is definitely the Greatest of his time, but all time requires alot of analysis. Keep in mind a lot of people still say Lombardi is a top 10 coach with only 99 wins. I think the big issue facing Bill’s legacy at this point is how long it takes for him to get Shula’s record. Brady retiring on a phenomenal season really awakens those debates of who is more responsible for the 6 SBs( even though the answer is all 3). I think if he has another slug to the playoffs affair like he did this year then it’s probably best he retires short of the record. Because people absolutely despise record chasers that do it by longevity over skill. But ultimately he makes a very good case based on record, rings, and consistency as being the GOAT. But it’s nowhere near as iron clad as Nick Saban’s dominance on college football. But for argument sake… why not. Best I have seen in my lifetime.

Brady kinda falls into the same category as Belichick. There are some metrics that allow you to argue someone else is better in certain aspects. I mean Brady is nowhere as talented as many of the guys today, or as good at the position as a whole as guys like Manning (the good one) and Marino. But when you look at him as a whole, what he accomplished, and what he means to the organizations that he played for then it’s hard to argue against him.

Really if we are talking about a magical retirement scenario… Brady un retires for one day is traded to the Patriots and takes one snap in the final game of the regular season and calls it quits at the end of the 2022 season. Then Bill retires as well. It would officially put the Patriots Way to bed in a good send off and allow Belichick and Brady to go in the same HOF class.

Maybe there is a clear GOAT in other sports. I would think Jordan, Mayweather (for his division), Gretzky, and Serena could be considered.
 

RollTide_HTTR

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The only Greatest of all time I’m willing to say isn’t debatable by any metric is Nick Saban. There is no equal and it’s unbiasedly so. The guy survives every seismic change in college football.

The problem with GOAT debates is that we are arguing around generations. I mean people regularly say Jerry Rice is the GOAT and so is Deion.

Why not Belichick… He is definitely the Greatest of his time, but all time requires alot of analysis. Keep in mind a lot of people still say Lombardi is a top 10 coach with only 99 wins. I think the big issue facing Bill’s legacy at this point is how long it takes for him to get Shula’s record. Brady retiring on a phenomenal season really awakens those debates of who is more responsible for the 6 SBs( even though the answer is all 3). I think if he has another slug to the playoffs affair like he did this year then it’s probably best he retires short of the record. Because people absolutely despise record chasers that do it by longevity over skill. But ultimately he makes a very good case based on record, rings, and consistency as being the GOAT. But it’s nowhere near as iron clad as Nick Saban’s dominance on college football. But for argument sake… why not. Best I have seen in my lifetime.

Brady kinda falls into the same category as Belichick. There are some metrics that allow you to argue someone else is better in certain aspects. I mean Brady is nowhere as talented as many of the guys today, or as good at the position as a whole as guys like Manning (the good one) and Marino. But when you look at him as a whole, what he accomplished, and what he means to the organizations that he played for then it’s hard to argue against him.

Really if we are talking about a magical retirement scenario… Brady un retires for one day is traded to the Patriots and takes one snap in the final game of the regular season and calls it quits at the end of the 2022 season. Then Bill retires as well. It would officially put the Patriots Way to bed in a good send off and allow Belichick and Brady to go in the same HOF class.

Maybe there is a clear GOAT in other sports. I would think Jordan, Mayweather (for his division), Gretzky, and Serena could be considered.
I'm a little biased but one guy who doesn't often come up in the GOAT conversation enough when it comes to NFL coaches is Joe Gibbs. The dude won 3 Super Bowls with 3 different QBs. Not saying he is definitively the best but he at least deserves to be in the conversation.
 

selmaborntidefan

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The only Greatest of all time I’m willing to say isn’t debatable by any metric is Nick Saban. There is no equal and it’s unbiasedly so. The guy survives every seismic change in college football.
Saban, yes.

And Wayne Gretzky for now anyway.


The problem with GOAT debates is that we are arguing around generations. I mean people regularly say Jerry Rice is the GOAT and so is Deion.
Deion couldn't tackle worth a damn, and Rod Woodson was a better cover guy with more TDs.


Why not Belichick… He is definitely the Greatest of his time, but all time requires alot of analysis. Keep in mind a lot of people still say Lombardi is a top 10 coach with only 99 wins.
Because:
a) they only played 12 and then 14 games per season then
b) he's third on the list in winning pct (.738)
c) he won 5 championships in only 7 years
d) plus he was the Giants OC for 5 years
e) he had a .900 winning pct, losing only one of 10 playoff games
f) he died when he was only 57 years old and still coaching
g) he NEVER had a losing season as either a coordinator or a coach
h) the team he was coaching when he died was in the Super Bowl 3 years later with a lot of his guys

The two guys ahead of Lombardi in win pct are Bill Cowher and John Madden, two excellent coaches.

I think the big issue facing Bill’s legacy at this point is how long it takes for him to get Shula’s record. Brady retiring on a phenomenal season really awakens those debates of who is more responsible for the 6 SBs( even though the answer is all 3). I think if he has another slug to the playoffs affair like he did this year then it’s probably best he retires short of the record. Because people absolutely despise record chasers that do it by longevity over skill. But ultimately he makes a very good case based on record, rings, and consistency as being the GOAT. But it’s nowhere near as iron clad as Nick Saban’s dominance on college football. But for argument sake… why not. Best I have seen in my lifetime.
There's a solid argument for Belichick as the greatest of all-time. I don't know the degree to which I'd assent to that. I thought Bill Walsh was actually a better coach, but he didn't do it as long. And do we say free agency is an ASSET to Belichick or a DETRIMENT? That could be argued either way.


Brady kinda falls into the same category as Belichick. There are some metrics that allow you to argue someone else is better in certain aspects. I mean Brady is nowhere as talented as many of the guys today, or as good at the position as a whole as guys like Manning (the good one) and Marino. But when you look at him as a whole, what he accomplished, and what he means to the organizations that he played for then it’s hard to argue against him.

Really if we are talking about a magical retirement scenario… Brady un retires for one day is traded to the Patriots and takes one snap in the final game of the regular season and calls it quits at the end of the 2022 season. Then Bill retires as well. It would officially put the Patriots Way to bed in a good send off and allow Belichick and Brady to go in the same HOF class.

Maybe there is a clear GOAT in other sports. I would think Jordan, Mayweather (for his division), Gretzky, and Serena could be considered.
Oh, now I see Gretzky.

Yes, a solid argument can be made for Serena as well.

I think it's more clear-cut in the case of Brady of him being the GOAT than Belichick being th GOAT. By the same token, my old man has watched football since the 50s and swore up and down for years nobody was better than Lombardi - but he changed his opinion watching Belichick, too. Just fwiw.
 
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81usaf92

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I'm a little biased but one guy who doesn't often come up in the GOAT conversation enough when it comes to NFL coaches is Joe Gibbs. The dude won 3 Super Bowls with 3 different QBs. Not saying he is definitively the best but he at least deserves to be in the conversation.
That’s kinda the problem with saying Brady and Belichick are the GOATs in all debates so let’s shut the whole conversation down. Gibbs was a hell of a coach and is vastly underrated because he came in a time in which Walsh, Ditka, and Parcels were dominating airwaves and television.

I think rings are too often used to shut down debates that we don’t consider one’s greatness. I mean do we really think Gruden and Pederson are on the same level as Cowher and Reid as head coaches? Or that Flacco is better than Marino? But I think in this day in age, you must have atleast one to be in the conversation.
 
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selmaborntidefan

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I'm a little biased but one guy who doesn't often come up in the GOAT conversation enough when it comes to NFL coaches is Joe Gibbs. The dude won 3 Super Bowls with 3 different QBs. Not saying he is definitively the best but he at least deserves to be in the conversation.
This is a fair point often overlooked.

And look who he beat to get to those championships:

1982 - Bud Grant, Tom Landry, Don Shula
1987 - Mike Ditka, Dan Reeves

And also whom he beat in the playoffs:
1983 - John Robinson (college football HOF), Bill Walsh
1986 - Mike Ditka

Gibbs kinda falls by the wayside because:
a) it took him longer (Walsh's success was more compressed)
b) Walsh gets an extra boost because 1/2 of folks think he won 4 because the 9ers did
c) two of those were in strike seasons (no asterisk - but people always observe that stuff)
 

81usaf92

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Saban, yes.

And Wayne Gretzky for now anyway.




Deion couldn't tackle worth a damn, and Rod Woodson was a better cover guy with more TDs.




Because:
a) they only played 12 and then 14 games per season then
b) he's third on the list in winning pct (.738)
c) he won 5 championships in only 7 years
d) plus he was the Giants OC for 5 years
e) he had a .900 winning pct, losing only one of 10 playoff games
f) he died when he was only 57 years old and still coaching
g) he NEVER had a losing season as either a coordinator or a coach
h) the team he was coaching when he died was in the Super Bowl 3 years later with a lot of his guys

The two guys ahead of Lombardi in win pct are Bill Cowher and John Madden, two excellent coaches.



There's a solid argument for Belichick as the greatest of all-time. I don't know the degree to which I'd assent to that. I thought Bill Walsh was actually a better coach, but he didn't do it as long. And do we say free agency is an ASSET to Belichick or a DETRIMENT? That could be argued either way.




Oh, now I see Gretzky.

Yes, a solid argument can be made for Serena as well.

I think it's more clear-cut in the case of Brady of him being the GOAT than Belichick being th GOAT. By the same token, my old man has watched football since the 50s and swore up and down for years nobody was better than Lombardi - but he changed his opinion watching Belichick, too. Just fwiw.
Keep in mind I’m not a huge hockey fan so the Gretzky is more of a deferment to more knowledgeable people in the sport than an actual well thought out opinion.

But the Lombardi thing kinda proves the point that it’s difficult to play the GOAT game across generations. I mean Most people my age and the generation above me usually agree that Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, and Emmitt have a good case for best running back of all time. But there are quiet s few people older than that swear that Jim Brown is greatest football player, not just running back, of all time. It’s truly hard to judge that.
 

selmaborntidefan

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That’s kinda the problem with saying Brady and Belichick are the GOATs in all debates so let’s shut the whole conversation down. Gibbs was a hell of a coach and is vastly underrated because he came in a time in which Walsh, Ditka, and Parcels were dominating airwaves and television.
Gibbs WAS the most boring of those guys, that's true.

What's even more amusing, though, is Gibbs was the offensive coordinator of Air Coryell, the San Diego Chargers of 1979 and 1980 that had Dan Fouts, Kellen Winslow, Charlie Joiner and (one year) John Jefferson. In 1979, they were 7th in yards and 2nd in points scored - behind the world champion Steelers. In 1980, they were first in yards (6410) and 4th in points scored. Their defense was atrocious, but their offense
averaged 26.2 ppg which was a MASSIVE total in 1980.

Then he goes to Washington and spends the next few years giving John Riggins the ball to run up the middle 30-35 times per game. It was like a totally different guy.

I think rings are too often used to shut down debates that we don’t consider one’s greatness. I mean do we really think Gruden and Pederson are on the same level as Cowher and Reid as head coaches? Or that Flacco is better than Marino? But I think in this day in age, you must have atleast one to be in the conversation.
Gruden might be the most overrated coach I've ever seen.
Pederson, it's too soon to tell at this point.

Quarterbacks touch the ball on virtually every offensive play, so they do play a huge role in whether a team wins or not, a decisive one in many cases. Of course, Fouts was fantastic and the Chargers had no D, too.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Keep in mind I’m not a huge hockey fan so the Gretzky is more of a deferment to more knowledgeable people in the sport than an actual well thought out opinion.
There have been other phenomenal hockey players, and maybe Ovetchkin will rate higher than Gretzky when he's through. But Gretzky is the ONLY hockey player to top 200 points in a season - and he did it FOUR times. When the top 13 spots in most points in one season are taken by two players (Gretzy and Mario Lemeiux) and cashes it into four Stanley Cups (that should have been five but for the biggest fluke in history), there's not much argument on that one.


But the Lombardi thing kinda proves the point that it’s difficult to play the GOAT game across generations. I mean Most people my age and the generation above me usually agree that Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, and Emmitt have a good case for best running back of all time. But there are quiet s few people older than that swear that Jim Brown is greatest football player, not just running back, of all time. It’s truly hard to judge that.
Jim Brown's case is largely based on the fact he (had) the highest ypc average at 5.2 - and the only guy with as many as Brown in as many games is Jamaal Charles with far fewer attempts and 4800 fewer yards. Plus, he was iconic.

Barry is the best I've seen, but I don't now if he's the best ever.
 

bamadwain

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There have been other phenomenal hockey players, and maybe Ovetchkin will rate higher than Gretzky when he's through. But Gretzky is the ONLY hockey player to top 200 points in a season - and he did it FOUR times. When the top 13 spots in most points in one season are taken by two players (Gretzy and Mario Lemeiux) and cashes it into four Stanley Cups (that should have been five but for the biggest fluke in history), there's not much argument on that one.




Jim Brown's case is largely based on the fact he (had) the highest ypc average at 5.2 - and the only guy with as many as Brown in as many games is Jamaal Charles with far fewer attempts and 4800 fewer yards. Plus, he was iconic.

Barry is the best I've seen, but I don't now if he's the best ever.
Also on Jim Brown he once said he never laid out on the field, no one ever had to come take him off he didn't say he never got hurt but he always walked off that's a man in the football world
 

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B1GTide

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Just read the filing and there was no proof of anything there. I feel terrible for him - well, as much as I can feel terrible for a very rich man - and maybe this will get the NFLs attention about the racial issue that have in coaching, but Flores went about this all wrong. He rushed this, and it won't end well for him.
 
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