A case for CNS to start and finish with Jalen in the 2017 AU game

BamaInBham

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I started this thread because several complaints have been lodged against Coach Saban over time for not playing Tua in the 2017 AU game. I'm not contending that they are necessarily wrong but wanted to make the case that CNS made a, IMO the only, reasonable choice in starting and finishing with Jalen. In hindsight, seeing that Bama lost and what Tua did vs UGA (though it was after much more practice), it is easy to say that Tua would have lead Bama to a victory. IMO, that is a reasonable. But consider the following leading up to the game:

  • Jalen was 23-1 at the time with the one loss concluding with Jalen leading a potential NC winning TD drive on his last possession.
  • One of Jalen's best qualities was that despite his limitations he had always responded when Bama had been challenged: 2016 OM, UT, A&M, MSU, Clemson, even FSU earlier in 2018 when they scored and Jalen immediately hit Ridley to put Bama back on top. So, he had done this numerous times.
  • Though in 2017 from A&M forward the offense had lost its dominance attributable in large part to Jalen's passing game limitations but he had still always successfully responded when needed and had seemed to take some small steps forward in the passing game. The following were the 2 P5 games prior to AU:
    - LSU: though the overall stats looked bad, Jalen threw the ball well overall and made several big passing plays, including one shocker where he converted a 3rd down through 2 or 3 defenders in a very tight window to Cam Sims. Part of the reason for the bad stats (something like 11-24 184) was several drops and multiple legitimate throwaways.
    - MSU: Jalen made several big passing plays leading the team to 2 4th qtr TDs to win the game.

Though it was clear that Jalen's passing game was still very limited, he seemed to have made a little progress but more importantly he had still personally always responded when when Bama was challenged - and he was 23-1. (IMO, CNS was probably not even seriously considering Tua at this time. Though most, certainly including CNS, could see he was a special talent, it was reasonable to think that he needed more seasoning to unseat a very successful starter. I.e., the real QB competition would start in Spring 2018.)

In the AU game itself, though Jalen and the offense had performed poorly, Bama was still ahead by 1 with ~3 min left in the 3rd qtr (the way you hear it now it's as if AU blew Bama out). After AU took the lead, Bama moved to the AU 12 (greatly aided by KO return), 30, 30, 3 (last play of game). The point being that Bama's offense while failing overall, it did not disappear but moved into scoring position every possession after falling behind.

In summary: considering all of those factors, how can anyone fault CNS for starting and finishing with Jalen at QB in that game? Not that an argument, IMO a very tough one, cannot be made for Tua, but how do you not start and finish with Jalen in that game? Though he had his limitations and was supported by a great team, he had always successfully responded when Bama was challenged (at least 8 previous times). This was his biggest selling point. And even in the AU game Bama responded offensively, though ultimately unsuccessfully and even embarrassingly a couple of times. After the AU loss, where Jalen lost his aura of invincibility and Tua had great post season practice, CNS knew that Tua might be needed and had him ready for Clemson.
 

squib

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Sep 24, 2005
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The shine was of Jalen after the Miss State game last year. It was clear that the offense was having significant problems, and the passing game was in trouble, which was setting up a situation that made it more difficult than it should have to run. I didn't attend any practices, but if Tua was showing anything in practice, I think a case could have been made that a change up was needed. Some things fell in place, and Bama was able to head into the playoffs with that loss, but it was not in Bama's best interest last year to not do all it could to beat Auburn.

Rumblings have been the staff was interested in moving on to Tua and that the receivers were feeling less than enthusiastic about their ability to help the team.

I am not saying it should have been done, but to say there was no reason to even consider Tua is not accurate either IMO.
 

BamaMoon

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I can see why there was uncertainty about when to make the change to Tua. To say "CNS" knows best is typical, but it almost cost us another NC. We were fortunate to get in to the CPF...not that we weren't the best team, but the optics of it for the committee. Thankfully, they did the right thing.

However, as Yogi once famously said, "Hindsight is 50/50." There's no way to make Jalen the better choice for that game than Tua based on what we know now.

Additionally, I find this opinion hard to believe: "IMO, CNS was probably not even seriously considering Tua at this time." If CNS was in touch with his assstant coaches and the mood of the team, he should have been considering it much, much earlier than the Auburn game.
 
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81usaf92

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I can see why there was uncertainty about when to make the change to Tua. To say "CNS" knows best is typical, but it almost cost us another NC. We were fortunate to get in to the CPF...not that we weren't the best team, but the optics of it for the committee. Thankfully, they did the right thing.

However, as Yogi once famously said, "Hindsight is 50/50." There's no way to make Jalen the better choice for that game than Tua based on what we know now.

Additionally, I find this opinion hard to believe: "IMO, CNS was probably not even seriously considering Tua at this time." If CNS was in touch with his assstant coaches and the mood of the team, he should have been considering it much, much earlier than the Auburn game.
I think all the leaks suggest CNS was not considering Tua until the the Clemson game. Remember there was a near mutiny from the receivers after the Auburn game that Locksley had to put down. So I think that opinion is more correct than you believe.

Also consider the Auburn game at the time was effectively a game that determined who would have a huge advantage for the playoffs and who would probably be eliminated from it. Why would he not try to play Tua in that game? It was about the same stakes.

Also, Tua was getting the usual backup reps throughout the regular season which is 25 to 30 percent of 1st string reps. Come Clemson it was 40-45%. Why the sudden change?

All 3 of these points point to CNS not considering Tua until the playoffs.
 
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Skeeterpop

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Jul 18, 2008
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Maybe Lord Saban was once again smarter than everyone and didnt want to show his wild card too soon. Plus had we won we would have had to play GA in ATL. We were not physically ready to have to go up against GA with all the injuries.

He may have decided to lose the battle to win the war! 😉
 

Redwood Forrest

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Sep 19, 2003
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I watched Bama commit suicide at Auburn. I watched Bama commit suicide in the first half with Georgia. Thank God someone called 911. No amount of oration or essaying will ever convince me otherwise.
 

RollTide_HTTR

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Feb 22, 2017
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Playing Tua vs Auburn would not have been an easy or close to obvious move. I do think it would have been the right one though.
 

Crimson White

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Not sure why this is a point of discussion anymore, but I think Saban should have let his offensive coordinator do his job, and he wanted to play Tua by the Auburn game.
 

PA Tide Fan

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I can understand why Saban didn't start Tua against Auburn. If I put myself in any coaches shoes with any team and they are 11-0, playing their big rival in their opponents stadium and I decide to change the starting QB in favor of a Freshman and we lose the game I might be crucified. After the loss it became obvious that something was lacking and needed to be changed but at the time I imagine the feeling was "if it isn't broke don't try to fix it."
 
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Blueguitar

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Nov 19, 2017
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My overall response to this thread is to reflect how spoiled we are as fans. Here we have a coach with five NCs in nine years, who puts in a true freshman at halftime of the national championship game, who then leads us to a come from behind victory. And now we want to spend time debating why said coach was so foolish as not to put said true freshman in as the starter two months sooner, in a road game against our biggest rival. When I dare say not a single one of us was pushing for that prior to the Auburn game.:rolleyes:
 

Skeeterpop

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Keep this in mind. Had coach made the swap to Tua in the barn game and we went on to win the Championship we would not likely have Jalen today. Who knows how valuable having him will turn out to be this year.

Plus we still won the Trophy so once again, Saban makes all the right moves.
 

81usaf92

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Apr 26, 2008
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My overall response to this thread is to reflect how spoiled we are as fans. Here we have a coach with five NCs in nine years, who puts in a true freshman at halftime of the national championship game, who then leads us to a come from behind victory. And now we want to spend time debating why said coach was so foolish as not to put said true freshman in as the starter two months sooner, in a road game against our biggest rival. When I dare say not a single one of us was pushing for that prior to the Auburn game.:rolleyes:
Do you really think this board wasn’t championing Tua as the starter last year? Because I can tell you for fact there was a thread that was started each week by the tua crowd For him to start.
 

KrAzY3

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If someone was crazier than me and took time to review all my previous posts, you'd see I was both highly supportive (and a bit overly optimistic) of Hurts, but that I always believed in Tua's potential as well (I never discounted his high NFL draft pick potential). The issue is Hurts up until the Auburn game had lead his team back every single time. He was battle tested, and he'd never failed. He'd struggled, but he'd always put his team in the lead. It wasn't always pretty, but he always got it done. So, you can't sit that guy, you just can't. It wasn't until you saw that Hurts wasn't always capable of leading his team back, that not playing him became a viable option. I was on this forum saying Tua had to go in at halftime in the Georgia, I knew it, Saban knew it, and I'm of the opinion Saban played it right the entire way, given the hand he was dealt.

I still think circumstance conspired against Hurts. Musical chairs at offensive coordinator, bad chemistry with Daboll, but as much as anything Tua's development just went better. Tua cleaned up his rookie issues, demonstrably improved (just look at his rating), while Hurts progress has come much slower, if at all. But, Daniels was talking about Hurts as a dark horse candidate for Heisman prior to the start of the Auburn game, this was a top ten rated guy in total QBR (we like the stat when Tua is #1, but a lot of people bristled when I pointed out how highly ranked Hurts was). He deserved to play, he deserved his shot, and in some ways the Auburn game sealed his fate because he wasn't given the chance to go down with the ship in the Georgia game and that was the right call to.
 
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BamaInBham

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Not sure why this is a point of discussion anymore, but I think Saban should have let his offensive coordinator do his job, and he wanted to play Tua by the Auburn game.
Saban did allow his OC do his job: organize the offense and staff, organize offensive practice, develop gameplans, call plays, recommend starters and playing time. The OC did this with input from his assistants. He likely went with many recommendations and rejected others. All of the OC functions are exercised under the supervision of the HC. As far as QB, according to some, Daboll recommended Tua and as he always does, Saban ruled on his recommendation. In this case he chose to remain with Jalen til the 2nd half of NC game. Would he have been a better option vs AU? Maybe. In hindsight it obviously couldn't have hurt. But that was not the point, which was that Saban's handling of the situation was reasonable in view of the facts at the time of the game even if one could argue that it was not the best. That's all.

(The reason I started the thread is that this criticism continues to be made by some. I wanted to offer what IMO is the valid case that what he did was reasonable. No one knows what was right - because we can't know where any other path would have led.)
 
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Crimson White

1st Team
Jun 17, 2014
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(The reason I started the thread is that this criticism continues to be made by some. I wanted to offer what IMO is the valid case that what he did was reasonable. No one knows what was right - because we can't know where any other path would have led.)
So Daboll was expected to put his best offense on the field, yet could not choose which players to do this, even though his wide receivers were near revolt.

I don't see any good point in rehashing this nearly 10 months later as you're doing here, but evidently you expect everybody to agree with you. Good luck with that.

"However, there was some frustration on Daboll’s part on personnel matters, multiple sources told The Tuscaloosa News. These weren’t all that contentious, but they were frustrating for an offensive coordinator being asked to put his best offense on the field. Daboll wanted to play freshman quarterback Tua Tagovailoa sooner than he has given the green light to do so. That doesn’t mean that Daboll didn’t like or want to play Jalen Hurtstoo. That’s not accurate at all. It’s just that Daboll saw what Tagovailoa was doing in practice against the best defense in the country and wanted to give him a chance once the offense started slumping in November."
 

bamafaninOhiO

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Using my power of hindsight, I think things worked out pretty well last season. :biggrin2:

I'm unsure of who on the board had better intel than the coaches that work with the players all season long to make a decision on changing QBs mid season...assuming they didn't feel Tua was quite ready. I believe Saban played him only as a last resort in the NCG due to us being absolutely unable to sustain a drive. That decision turned out amazingly well, but it quite possibly might not have if he had played earlier.
 
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