AL article: Ivey "Restaurants, salons, gyms can reopen Monday"

IMALOYAL1

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I know a great deal of contractors that have continued to work. I see a very large force of grocery workers and all the vendors that deliver products. I'd wager the majority of cashiers, stockers and vendors are majority democrats where I live. It's not religion or Trump that has them going to work everyday.
I continue to ask those I meet if they know anyone that has the covid-19.

Unless you grow your own food, you are causing others to risk their lives and the lives of their loved ones so that you may stay home and eat.
 

NationalTitles18

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I know a great deal of contractors that have continued to work. I see a very large force of grocery workers and all the vendors that deliver products. I'd wager the majority of cashiers, stockers and vendors are majority democrats where I live. It's not religion or Trump that has them going to work everyday.
I continue to ask those I meet if they know anyone that has the covid-19.

Unless you grow your own food, you are causing others to risk their lives and the lives of their loved ones so that you may stay home and eat.
Nice try. Everyone on Earth has to eat. Everyone. No exceptions.

Now we could have treated these workers right from the start and offered protection for them. We could have ramped up our testing and production of PPE. Many of us here wanted those things and more. Most of these were reasonable demands that our government chose to not do for whatever the reason and still refuses to do despite our calling for it.
 

IMALOYAL1

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Everyone on Earth has to eat.
Yes they do.

Most I know have to pay for their food and shelter including utilities. It's getting very hard to convince people who live paycheck to paycheck that only those affluent enough to shelter in place are safe from the hazards of life.
 

NationalTitles18

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Yes they do.

Most I know have to pay for their food and shelter including utilities. It's getting very hard to convince people who live paycheck to paycheck that only those affluent enough to shelter in place are safe from the hazards of life.
So let me get this straight:

We have two choices and no more

1. starve to death and ruin the economy too

2. send everyone back to work without adequate protections or testing

and that's it. No other choices?

Or maybe it really didn't have to be this way.
 

IMALOYAL1

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You may not get out as much as I have the last month. There are a very large number of places open for business that are supposed to be shut down.

Small restaurants that have people eating inside, including the local police. I've been very surprised at how many places are open to anyone that wants to frequent them. The authorities seem to be turning a blind eye if no one complains.
 

NationalTitles18

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I have not presented any choices for anyone. Just that some may feel their choices are limited by the size of their bank account, if they have one.
Never meant to say that you had said that, but that's how people seem to see it and it seems too many can't think enough to see those were not the only two choices out there. I merely used your post as a "jumping point". Sorry if you felt I was singling you out - it was not my intention.

We have spent what? 3 trillion on this? And we can bail out huge industries that had multiple opportunities - better than most middle class and lower wage workers - to put up money for a rainy day and yet we can only spend $1200 for each adult (and not even all of them) in this country?! Bull. We could take care of people financially who need to stay home and have chosen corporate welfare instead of general welfare.
 

NationalTitles18

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You may not get out as much as I have the last month. There are a very large number of places open for business that are supposed to be shut down.

Small restaurants that have people eating inside, including the local police. I've been very surprised at how many places are open to anyone that wants to frequent them. The authorities seem to be turning a blind eye if no one complains.
Haha! I am out most days.
 
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4Q Basket Case

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I keep seeing this repeated, and it is likely to have some truth to it but I have never seen actual proof offered in support of the claim, especially as to what the actual mortality/death rate is. There is conjecture. There are false claims based on faulty data. There is "common sense" and "a feeling". There is some evidence for it (not claiming there is zero evidence). But where is the proof and what is the actual number?
The death rate is definitely lower than the quoted figures because there are so many that have had the virus, but were asymptomatic, or had mild symptoms and mistook it for a common cold or mild flu. In other words, we have the numerator (deaths) down pretty well, though not perfectly due to early deaths mistaken for pneumonia.

What we don’t have a handle on is the denominator — the number of people that have actually had it.

Due to a combination of (1) the nature of the virus’s symptoms, and (2) the abysmal testing in the US — at this point in time, unfathomable to me — we not only don’t know, but can’t know the denominator. So it’s mathematically impossible to know the death rate.

This lack of adequate testing is the most appalling failure of the American response.

well, what we do know is that it has turned out to be more deadly than it had to be and lots of americans continue to die each day in large part due to malfeasance
I agree that it’s been deadlier than it had to be. Not sure if you mean malfeasance (which I typically interpret as stealing), or ignorance and/or lying. Either would be correct.
 
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NationalTitles18

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The death rate is definitely lower than the quoted figures because there are so many that have had the virus, but were asymptomatic, or had mild symptoms and mistook it for a common cold or mild flu. In other words, we have the numerator (deaths) down pretty well, though not perfectly due to early deaths mistaken for pneumonia.

What we don’t have a handle on is the denominator — the number of people that have actually had it.

So, due to a combination of (1) the nature of the virus’s symptoms, and (2) the abysmal testing in the US (at this point in time, unfathomable to me), we not only don’t know, but can’t know the denominator, so we can’t know the death rate.

This lack of adequate testing is the most appalling failure of the response.



I agree that it’s been deadlier than it had to be. Not sure if you mean malfeasance (which I typically interpret as stealing), or ignorance and/or lying. Either would be correct.
We are still missing COVID-19 deaths because many are happening at home. It will literally take years to get a truer idea of just how many uncounted COVID-19 deaths there have been to this point. I still would like to see evidence for the lower mortality rate, especially with the mortality rate among cases that are closed - those with a known outcome of death vs recovery - closer to 26% as it currently stands.

The poor testing and lack of data for the denominator are a big reason it will take years to sort it out and even then there will be some estimation.

I would not be surprised for the true mortality/death rate to be much higher than many people are currently expecting, but then it would not be a terrible surprise to see it in the 0.5-1.0% range.
 
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NationalTitles18

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I'd also like to see evidence that the actual number is lower than reported or that deaths are being reported as COVID-19 when something else is the true cause. If there's so many then there has to be a mountain of evidence. Where is the evidence?
 

4Q Basket Case

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So let me get this straight:

We have two choices and no more

1. starve to death and ruin the economy too

2. send everyone back to work without adequate protections or testing

and that's it. No other choices?

Or maybe it really didn't have to be this way.
It’s certainly easier to think in ones and zeros. Perfect black or pure white. Gray doesn’t exist.

Nuance is work.

Why you makin’ me think?
 

4Q Basket Case

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Because people are being given a false choice. It never had to be this way and still doesn't.
And the fact that so many accept the false choice (runs both red and blue politically) is disturbing in itself.

What has happened to critical thinking?

Oh.....wait.... I know.....it’s just so much easier to insult someone you don’t agree with (they are morally inferior, don’tcha know) than it is to examine your own position.

Why think when it’s so simple (and gratifying!) to sling mud?
 
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NationalTitles18

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And the fact that so any accept the false choice (runs both red and blue politically) is disturbing in itself.
Indeed, but that trend is far more a red phenomenon that a blue one. Most want the economy back and people to have their lives back to as close to normal as possible. One side tends to deny there's even a need for more testing while the other believes it essential to opening up more safely.
 

JesstheWanderer

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Oct 19, 2019
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There is a way to protect public health and the economy. AND it’s not through corporate welfare. If people’s basic needs were met (i.e. nutrition, shelter, healthcare), we wouldn’t be forced into the false dichotomy of risk your life or the economy. The economy is tanked anyway as long as masses of people are dying and afraid. BUT if the people who fuel the economy have a means to whether the storm and aren’t forced into a deadly choice, history has shown the economy comes back stronger. The variances in the 1918 Flu Pandemic is an example of this. AND at least in Finland there appears to be evidence that UBI does not make people less apt to work as one of the many USian mythologies would have us believe.

https://www.sciencealert.com/latest...income-trial-suggests-we-d-be-happier-with-it
 

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