Alabama's unquestionably the #1 all-time cfb program. Your #2 through #5?

CrimsonEyeshade

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Can't really argue. Except USC has disappeared from the national conversation over the last 15 years. Oklahoma and Notre Dame continue to compete at a high level -- even if they get squashed every year in the playoffs. Besides, you just hate Notre Dame!

Alabama #1
Ohio State #2
USC #3
Oklahoma #4
Notre Dame #5
 
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Go Bama

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Fifteenessee
Alabama



Oklahoma
Notre Dame
Miami
USC

This is just off the top of my head. I haven’t set these teams into the concrete yet. There’s a lot of distance between Bama and whoever anyone wants to put in second place.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Four all beef patties, 6 feet under: the McCPR
(I obviously exclude titles from when there were five teams playing)

1) Alabama - most national titles, most weeks at #1, most bowl wins, 2nd in wins on the field (5th due to forfeits), 2nd in bowl losses
2) Notre Dame - second most national titles, 4th in one the field wins
3) Ohio State - 8 national titles, 3rd in on the field wins, 24 bowl wins (but actually a LOSING Bowl record, fourth in bowl losses)
3) USC - 7 national titles, 2nd most bowl wins, 12th all-time in wins
4) Oklahoma - 7 national titles, 8th all-time in wins, 4th in bowl wins




I guess it will get controversial but here is how I determined the bottom three up there.

USC is 13-10-1 all-time against Ohio St and 5-2-1 all-time against Oklahoma.

USC also beat Ohio State head-to-head to win a national title TWICE (1972, 1974) and Oklahoma once (2004)
OU never beat USC in a head-to-head game where they had to do it to win the national title and got blown out the only time they had the chance.
Ohio State beat USC head-to-head in 1968 - and that one was a 1 vs 2 showdown.

Winning that 69 Rose Bowl combined with more wins and national titles puts Ohio State at third.

Without that signature game, I'd have USC over Ohio St.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Four all beef patties, 6 feet under: the McCPR
Can't really argue. Except USC has disappeared from the national conversation over the last 15 years. Oklahoma and Notre Dame continue to compete at a high level -- even if they get squashed every year in the playoffs. Besides, you just hate Notre Dame!
Last 15 years goes back to 2004.....


USC won the national title
Played for it in 2005
Came within one play of playing for it in 2006
Came within one play of playing for it in 2007
Came within one play of playing for it in 2008


????????????
 

saturdaysarebet

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Interesting thus far, a consensus of the top five (except for Miami) which I pretty much agree. I also take bowl success into account. You're playing a peer of somewhat equal success that season not a cupcake. I'm somewhat surprised so far no mention of Texas, Nebraska and THE most overrated blue blood program Michigan.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Four all beef patties, 6 feet under: the McCPR
Interesting thus far, a consensus of the top five (except for Miami) which I pretty much agree. I also take bowl success into account. You're playing a peer of somewhat equal success that season not a cupcake. I'm somewhat surprised so far no mention of Texas, Nebraska and THE most overrated blue blood program Michigan.
Nebraska is little more than two compressed dynasties (1970-71, 1994-97) combined with two coaches who spent decades running up the score on (most years) six nobodies and losing more big games than they won.

Nebraska is a legit TOP TEN program. Anyone who ranks them in the Top Five needs serious consideration for either an insane asylum or to see whether they themselves are "children of the corn."

Want to take a guess on what Osborne's record was against FBS teams with 9 or more wins NOT named Oklahoma from 1973-1992, a full two decades?

1973-1977: 6-1 (remember that the first three classes were Devaney's, and he went 3-1 with them)
1978 - 1993: 11-21

20 years, 17-22 against 9-win (or better) teams NOT named Oklahoma.

(Those are NOT impressive numbers).

He was 11-13 against OU, and only 4 of those wins were against OU teams with 9 or better wins.

From 1973-1993, Osborne played (and lost to) the eventual national champion no less than TWELVE TIMES. In both 90 and 91, Nebraska was the only team in the country to lose to BOTH teams that won a shared national title.

0-12 against eventual national champions. Hell, even 2011 LSU and 2012 ATM and 2015 Ole Miss and 2017 Auburn have more wins against eventual national champions than those so-called great Nebraska teams.

1974-75-78-81-82-83-85-90-90-91-91-93

What I'm saying is that Nebraska got an inflated reputation based upon:
a) they'd win 9-10 games a year playing a bunch of nobodies
b) TV schedule limitations meant that the only games folks saw them most years were OU and the bowl game
c) Tom Osborne (like Joe Paterno) was supposed to be one of those "good for the game" coaches
d) the perception of an injustice in the 1982 Penn St game followed by their 1983 #1 ranking and losing so close somehow became extrapolated onto all their other teams of the time


And then all people remember of Osborne is his final four years, when he won three titles - and the mammoth blowout on Florida sort of serving as a memorable visual.


Nebraska, from Devaney through the Osborne years, WAS a solid program. But save for two brief dynasties, they were the most overrated program in CFB history.
 

TideEngineer08

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Can't argue with anything said here (except Miami... really???)

It's some combo of Oklahoma, Ohio State, USC, and Notre Dame.

Nebraska, Texas, Michigan, Penn State, in the next tier. When discussing all-time college football, you simply can't include Florida State, Miami, and Florida ahead of the aforementioned. But I'd list them in the next tier, along with schools like Georgia, LSU, and even Tennessee (remember, all-time, they are the 2nd most successful SEC program behind Alabama. Perhaps they've been passed by Florida and LSU, but I do believe they still have the second most SEC titles).
 

selmaborntidefan

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Can't argue with anything said here (except Miami... really???)

It's some combo of Oklahoma, Ohio State, USC, and Notre Dame.
Miami is not top five, but a reasonable argument can be made for them in the Top Ten.

I don't know that I'd agree with it, but a reasonable argument could be made.


Nebraska, Texas, Michigan, Penn State, in the next tier. When discussing all-time college football, you simply can't include Florida State, Miami, and Florida ahead of the aforementioned.
I might fudge a bit on Penn State.

I think a reasonable argument can be made in favor of FSU and Miami.
I DON'T think one can be made on behalf of Florida, who won their first SEC title in 1991 (even getting technical with saying they were the SEC's best team in 1984, they began playing in 1906).

Miami, in particular, was quite dominant for a solid decade and then had another spurt of near greatness in 2000-2002.

I think the top five are easy, it's just a question of "who ranks where and why."
Legit arguments can make Ohio St or OU number two, and Notre Dame has been in (for them) a historic low post-Holtz with rare good year exceptions like 2012 and 2018.

Below the top five, it gets much more difficult.

The problem I have with Michigan is that the major point in their favor is "has the most wins and best winning pct (.730)."
But their winning pct is largely controlled by their wins total, which is largely controlled by "has played the most games" - and ran up impressive numbers in pre-1950 college football.

It seems to me that when we're going in the all-time great category, it sorta requires a team that has done a lot across a lot of different decades and especially MORE RECENTLY.
Let's face it - the quality of football played has drastically increased over the last 50 years. So in my view, a team (like Miami, for example, or maybe Penn St) can be ranked even if they weren't very good early on but have been truly phenomenal for a long period of more recent time.

Miami WAS - and I'm a strong critic of that whole nonsense myself - but Miami WAS the Team of the Decade for the 1980s. It's not even a close competition. While I have some beefs with HOW they won a few of those titles (they did not deserve it in 1983 over Auburn, and they ducked Florida in 1991 to smoke Nebraska in the safety of their own home field), those balance out over time, and a strong argument can be made that Miami got hosed in 1985, when they beat OU head-to-head and then watched OU play Penn St in a national title Orange Bowl. Miami was probably the best team in the USA in 1985-86-87-88, and they only got one title out of those years, but they were NOT the best team in the country in 1983, 1989, or 1991 - and they won those. So it balances out.

But I have a hard time putting Miami either top five or even ahead of Nebraska over the long haul. Yes, both have five national titles, but Nebraska's winning pct is almost 60 points higher despite playing 316 more games than Miami.


Florida State put together an Alabama-like run from 1987-2002, but the reality is that not only did they win "only" two titles, their 1993 title is tainted by the fact they had no damned business in the title game, and they choked more often than they champed (they lost to the eventual national champions in 1983, 1987, 1991, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2001, 2006, 2008, 2016, 2017, 2018), and even their own coach thinks their 2013 title is a fluke prevented by The Play That Shall Not Be Mentioned Here.




But I'd list them in the next tier, along with schools like Georgia, LSU, and even Tennessee (remember, all-time, they are the 2nd most successful SEC program behind Alabama. Perhaps they've been passed by Florida and LSU, but I do believe they still have the second most SEC titles).

Things That Matter In Determining This

National championships (they're not the "be all and end all," but they DO matter)
Total wins
Winning pct
Weeks at #1 (important because it means the perception AT THE TIME was "they're the best")


Things That DO NOT Matter Much or AT ALL
Heisman Trophies (little more than a popularity contest)
conference championships (Notre Dame has zero, and all conferences are not created equally)
big names long ago that haven't won anything in the last 50 years
 

TideEngineer08

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I hated even listing Penn State. But they've got a longevity that the Florida schools don't have and in the cases of Miami and Florida State, they've had difficulty maintaining their 80s success. However, you do have to admire how Miami did it under multiple coaches, and now Florida State did as well, even if Fisher burned out.

I mention Tennessee's SEC titles simply to highlight how they've strung success together over many decades. They've done well on the national level during that time as well. But I don't have a problem with listing them behind all of the others mentioned.
 

tusks_n_raider

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I'm in agreement that #2-5 are some combination of....

Ohio State
Oklahoma
USCw
Notre Dame

I'm just not sure where ND belongs?

They have the pedigree to be #2 sure.... but they haven't won a National Championship in 31 years (1988-2019)!!!

To kind of put that in perspective that's longer that our 2 most recent longest droughts COMBINED....

1979 -1992 (13 Years) and 1992-2009 (17 Years)

I mean they just aren't even remotely relevant on a National scale in modern times.

If they didn't have their own network TV deal, I'm not sure people would care about them at all or even know how their seasons panned out from year to year.
 

Chipeace

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My top 4 excluding Alabama are in no particular order l:

Michigan
Notre Dame
USC
Ohio State

Next 4:

Texas
Oklahoma
Florida
LSU

Also I don’t follow directions well.
 

saturdaysarebet

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Miami is not top five, but a reasonable argument can be made for them in the Top Ten.

I don't know that I'd agree with it, but a reasonable argument could be made.




I might fudge a bit on Penn State.

I think a reasonable argument can be made in favor of FSU and Miami.
I DON'T think one can be made on behalf of Florida, who won their first SEC title in 1991 (even getting technical with saying they were the SEC's best team in 1984, they began playing in 1906).

Miami, in particular, was quite dominant for a solid decade and then had another spurt of near greatness in 2000-2002.

I think the top five are easy, it's just a question of "who ranks where and why."
Legit arguments can make Ohio St or OU number two, and Notre Dame has been in (for them) a historic low post-Holtz with rare good year exceptions like 2012 and 2018.

Below the top five, it gets much more difficult.

The problem I have with Michigan is that the major point in their favor is "has the most wins and best winning pct (.730)."
But their winning pct is largely controlled by their wins total, which is largely controlled by "has played the most games" - and ran up impressive numbers in pre-1950 college football.

It seems to me that when we're going in the all-time great category, it sorta requires a team that has done a lot across a lot of different decades and especially MORE RECENTLY.
Let's face it - the quality of football played has drastically increased over the last 50 years. So in my view, a team (like Miami, for example, or maybe Penn St) can be ranked even if they weren't very good early on but have been truly phenomenal for a long period of more recent time.

Miami WAS - and I'm a strong critic of that whole nonsense myself - but Miami WAS the Team of the Decade for the 1980s. It's not even a close competition. While I have some beefs with HOW they won a few of those titles (they did not deserve it in 1983 over Auburn, and they ducked Florida in 1991 to smoke Nebraska in the safety of their own home field), those balance out over time, and a strong argument can be made that Miami got hosed in 1985, when they beat OU head-to-head and then watched OU play Penn St in a national title Orange Bowl. Miami was probably the best team in the USA in 1985-86-87-88, and they only got one title out of those years, but they were NOT the best team in the country in 1983, 1989, or 1991 - and they won those. So it balances out.

But I have a hard time putting Miami either top five or even ahead of Nebraska over the long haul. Yes, both have five national titles, but Nebraska's winning pct is almost 60 points higher despite playing 316 more games than Miami.


Florida State put together an Alabama-like run from 1987-2002, but the reality is that not only did they win "only" two titles, their 1993 title is tainted by the fact they had no damned business in the title game, and they choked more often than they champed (they lost to the eventual national champions in 1983, 1987, 1991, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2001, 2006, 2008, 2016, 2017, 2018), and even their own coach thinks their 2013 title is a fluke prevented by The Play That Shall Not Be Mentioned Here.







Things That Matter In Determining This

National championships (they're not the "be all and end all," but they DO matter)
Total wins
Winning pct
Weeks at #1 (important because it means the perception AT THE TIME was "they're the best")


Things That DO NOT Matter Much or AT ALL
Heisman Trophies (little more than a popularity contest)
conference championships (Notre Dame has zero, and all conferences are not created equally)
big names long ago that haven't won anything in the last 50 years
Where do you rank bowl wins and bowl winning percentage in your factors of ranking determination? Totally agree with you about Heisman trophies. When you think how many decades Alabama went without a Heisman trophy winner. Louisville's had one Heisman trophy winner. Big deal.
 

saturdaysarebet

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My top 4 excluding Alabama are in no particular order l:

Michigan
Notre Dame
USC
Ohio State

Next 4:

Texas
Oklahoma
Florida
LSU

Also I don’t follow directions well.
You remember that video clip of former Indianapolis Colts head coach Jim Mora saying, "Playoffs? Playoffs?!" I need one of him questioning, "Michigan? Michigan?!"

No one under the age of 75, SEVENTY-FIVE, remembers seeing Michigan win two national championships. Food for thought.
 

tusks_n_raider

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You remember that video clip of former Indianapolis Colts head coach Jim Mora saying, "Playoffs? Playoffs?!" I need one of him questioning, "Michigan? Michigan?!"

No one under the age of 75, SEVENTY-FIVE, remembers seeing Michigan win two national championships. Food for thought.
Yeah and that most recent National Championship was 22 years ago and not Unanimous by way of Splitting it with Nebraska.

It is a huge reason I don't even remotely consider them for the Top 5. Their last Consensus National Championship was 71 years ago!!!

Their only real bragging rights are leading the All-Time Wins category but that's mainly because they have about a 10-15 year head start on all the other major programs.

Sure they are a Top 10 All-Time team..... but Top 5?? Pbbbbbttt
 

GrayTide

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If based solely on number of NCs then.

1. Alabama 17
2. Notre Dame 13
3. Southern Cal 11
4. Michigan 11
5. Ohio State 8
 
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