Baseball Hall of Fame Rife With Inconsistent Morality

selmaborntidefan

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There are two - and ONLY two - consistent positions that can be held on induction of steroid users into the Baseball HOF:

1) All of them who compiled yardstick accomplishments make it (including McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, etc).
2) NONE of them get in (including Bonds and Clemens)

And we now have guy voted in who actually tested positive and was, oh, 1/10th the player of Bonds - and the very same moralists who spent the last decade telling me they can't vote for a steroid user are RATIONALIZING Ortiz's "alleged" positive test in 2003.

Look - is Ortiz a HOFer all things considered? Yes. Even as a DH? Yes. It's a position on the field, fine.

But this sudden flip flop on "can't have steroid users in the Hall" is insane.

You make Piazza wait 3 years.
You make Bagwell wait 6 years.

All because you suspect they MIGHT have done something.

But Pudge Rodriguez gets in first shot despite suspicions.
David Ortiz gets in first shot despite a positive test.

My problem isn't drugs or not drugs - it's the inconsistent morality involved.
 

B1GTide

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I don't think that it has to be consistent, because the level of use and abuse was not consistent.
 

UAH

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There are two - and ONLY two - consistent positions that can be held on induction of steroid users into the Baseball HOF:

1) All of them who compiled yardstick accomplishments make it (including McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, etc).
2) NONE of them get in (including Bonds and Clemens)

And we now have guy voted in who actually tested positive and was, oh, 1/10th the player of Bonds - and the very same moralists who spent the last decade telling me they can't vote for a steroid user are RATIONALIZING Ortiz's "alleged" positive test in 2003.

Look - is Ortiz a HOFer all things considered? Yes. Even as a DH? Yes. It's a position on the field, fine.

But this sudden flip flop on "can't have steroid users in the Hall" is insane.

You make Piazza wait 3 years.
You make Bagwell wait 6 years.

All because you suspect they MIGHT have done something.

But Pudge Rodriguez gets in first shot despite suspicions.
David Ortiz gets in first shot despite a positive test.

My problem isn't drugs or not drugs - it's the inconsistent morality involved.
To me baseball as a game was significant in our society because of our ability to compare the statistics of players over the generations. Saying that, one has to recognize that entire generations of black players were excluded from participation, and that is by far the greatest inconsistency that has existed from the beginning of major league baseball and the HOF.

From my standpoint putting Big Pappy in is just one more glaring inconsistency. To the degree that the entire process has become completely irrelevant to society as a whole.

I guess we could say that it mirrors the degradation of our society in general with the advent of drugs throughout the population and in every sport specifically. It just isn't worth much more than an ounce of my attention any longer except to morn the passing of the myth that I held growing up.
 

81usaf92

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Either all in or all out. But eventually they all are going to get in via special committee. So all the voters are doing is taking a stance against it.
 

B1GTide

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When did Bonds start juicing? 2000-2001? If so, his performance prior to that is worthy of a 1st ballot Hall of Famer.
No doubt. But I am okay keeping people like him and Pete Rose out. To be honest, he gets talked about more this way. They all do.
 

81usaf92

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This is largely correct at least as far as Bonds and Clemens (and for that matter Schilling) are concerned.

I suspect they'll open a "steroid era" wing or something.
I guarantee you that when either all these guys die out or the voters die out then they get in. I’m fairly certain that if Pete Rose croaked tomorrow then he will be inducted by special committee in 2023.

As for Bonds… I have mixed feelings on because on one hand you have to admit he is a HOF without roids but on the other he broke a cherished record because of him. Acknowledging his name in the hall as is is condoning his behavior. If it came with a wipe of the suspected years of clear juicing then I think many could get behind it.

Schilling is too much of borderline guy and a scumbag.

Clemens is by far the hardest to really figure out.
 

selmaborntidefan

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When did Bonds start juicing? 2000-2001? If so, his performance prior to that is worthy of a 1st ballot Hall of Famer.
Well...sort of, although I reject this argument by the voters as incredibly convenient because it assumes we actually know the answer to said question.

The narrative or theory or whatever basically says that Bonds was jealous of the attention Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa got for the home run chase in 1998 and decided to go rogue. Now I can certainly believe that might have happened - but I have no evidence that it did happen. It's also a lot of why I just basically gave up on the whole thing and said we may as well - if a person has the numbers - put them in the HOF. Bret Boone and a bunch of other guys did it, but it didn't turn them into HOFers.

Mark McGwire hit 49 home runs as a rookie in 1987, a time where even Canseco says McGwire wasn't using (and as skinny as he was I figure that's true - which is sorta the same with Bonds). Mac was the first player in MLB history to clear 30 homers in his first four full big-league seasons - in a pitcher's park no less, so the fact he could hit the long ball even before roids is acknowledged even by Jose. Now that being said - of course Bonds is five times the player McGwire was overall since he could run, steal, and play adequate defense. I only use McGwire because revisionism goes with, "he became a long ball hitter when he started juicing" and it's parallel to the Bonds argument on worthiness.

But then we get a guy elected who DID, in fact, have something neither Bonds nor McGwire nor Clemens had - a positive steroid test. That's my issue. I don't have a problem with Bonds or Ortiz - or for that matter McGwire, Sosa, or Palmeiro - getting elected to the Hall. Clemens either. I just don't think it services the argument well to say, "Well sometimes it's okay, sometimes it's not, and sometimes we'll just cut off your career at the point we think you started using to make the argument."

Look, I'll even grant B1G's point but guess what? That's NOT the point that's been brought up until this election all of a sudden. It's that kind of versatility of argument that grinds my gears a bit and while it isn't going to change or solve anything, I at least wanted to grouse to the fellow baseball fans, too.

Some other idiot the other day decided to go the, "It's racist, they just had a problem because Bonds wouldn't kowtow to white society and be nice." Just shut up - Roger Clemens was as big a jerk as Bonds was, and he didn't get in, either.

(No - Rob Parker was not the source of that nonsense).
 

selmaborntidefan

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I guarantee you that when either all these guys die out or the voters die out then they get in. I’m fairly certain that if Pete Rose croaked tomorrow then he will be inducted by special committee in 2023.
I don't think this will happen, though. Now it COULD, I just don't think it will.

We've got folks who go full revisionist on Joe Jackson now and want him in the HOF, so I guess anything is possible. But there's such animus against Rose, not only because of what he did but because he insisted on compounding it at every opportunity to turn around. And because there WAS a known fixed World Series in 1919, baseball reacts far differently to gambling than other sports.

Rose might possibly go in a century from now, but i honestly don't think it will happen in my lifetime.
 

Padreruf

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Since when did professional athletics become a bastion of sainthood? I'll bet if you scratch just below the surface into most of the members of the MLB HOF you will find morality issues abound. Utter hypocrisy...other than with Pete Rose. Betting on baseball and lying about it -- that's a good enough bar for me.
 

TexasBama

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Since when did professional athletics become a bastion of sainthood? I'll bet if you scratch just below the surface into most of the members of the MLB HOF you will find morality issues abound. Utter hypocrisy...other than with Pete Rose. Betting on baseball and lying about it -- that's a good enough bar for me.
One point that I think is worth mentioning - the Press didn’t LIKE Barry Bonds.
 

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