Civil War in France?

Tidewater

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Just saw a story about an open letter from French soldiers (some retired, others on active duty) to the president of the republic.
Our tricolor flags are not just pieces of cloth, they symbolize the tradition, through the ages, of those who, whatever their skin color or their faith, served France and gave their lives for it. … But our honor today lies in the denunciation of the disintegration/breakdown/crime which strikes our country.
- Breakdown which, through a certain anti-racism, is displayed with a single goal: to create on our soil a malaise, even hatred between the communities. …
- Breakdown which, with Islamism and the suburban hordes, leads to the detachment of multiple plots of the nation to transform them into territories subject to dogmas contrary to our constitution. But each Frenchman, whatever his belief or his non-belief, is everywhere at home in France; there cannot and must not exist any city, any district where the laws of the Republic do not apply.
- Breakdown because hatred takes precedence over brotherhood during demonstrations where the power uses the police as a proxy and scapegoat in the face of French people in yellow vests expressing their despair.
… We, servants of the Nation, who have always been ready to risk our skin in battle -… cannot be passive spectators in the face of such actions.
… If nothing is done, [there will be] an explosion and the intervention of our active comrades in a perilous mission of protecting our civilizational values and safeguarding of our compatriots on the national territory.
Tomorrow a civil war will put an end to this growing chaos,
Then I saw the Harris Poll on French society in which majorities (or hefty minorities) agree with what the French military letter-writers said.
- The laws of the republic cannot be applied in certain towns and neighborhoods: 86%
- In France, violence grows day by day: 84%
- In France, a certain form of antiracism produces hatred between communities. 74%
- French society is in the process of breaking down: 73%
- The army should intervene without orders (from political leadership) to guarantee the order and security of France: 49%
- France will soon experience a civil war: 45%

Those numbers are kind of scary.

The soldiers will be disciplined for violating the French military principles of loyalty to the republic and partisan political neutrality.

On the other hand:
French poll: Majority support generals’ warning that “civil war” is close
A Harris Interactive poll of French citizens has found 58 per cent of respondents support a controversial warning.
 
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Tidewater

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But French nationalist politician Marine Le Pen welcomed the letter, calling on the generals to join her in "the battle of France".

Why am I not surprised that the usual suspects are standing in the shadows?
Not unexpected (that le Pen is in the background), but the polling numbers indicate a level of frustration with the status quo and agreement with the letter that extends beyond the ranks of the FN.
The FM is not a 73%-86% party.
 
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4Q Basket Case

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Just saw a story about an open letter from French soldiers (some retired, others on active duty) to the president of the republic.

Then I saw the Harris Poll on French society in which majorities (or hefty minorities) agree with what the French military letter-writers said.
- The laws of the republic cannot be applied in certain towns and neighborhoods: 86%
- In France, violence grows day by day: 84%
How in the world can 80+% of the respondents not see the connection between these two positions?

It's like a Portland mindset has taken over 80% of the French population.

SMH
 
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B1GTide

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IMO, most of the mess in France can be traced back to the way that they handled (or didn't handle) immigration. They allowed huge immigrant populations to enter the country and live together in what amount to segregated communities. These people have not even attempted to learn the language, which makes them virtually unemployable outside of their segregated communities. Poverty is very, very high among these immigrants, and that puts pressure on everyone and everything around them. There are many of these communities which are not even policed because the authority of the French police is not recognized.
 

day-day

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How in the world can 80+% of the respondents can't see the connection between these two positions?

It's like a Portland mindset has taken over 80% of the French population.

SMH
I think they do see the connection. It doesn't appear to me that 86% approve of the laws not being applied in certain places; they see it as how things are.
 

Tidewater

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I think they do see the connection. It doesn't appear to me that 86% approve of the laws not being applied in certain places; they see it as how things are.
That's the way I took it. The French police cannot enforce the law in some (many?) areas, and 86% of French believe this is true, but they do not like that.
 
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CrimsonNagus

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Will you join in our crusade?
Who will be strong and stand with me?
Beyond the barricade
Is there a world you long to see?
Then join in the fight
That will give you the right to be free!

Do you hear the people sing?
Singing a song of angry men?
It is the music of a people
Who will not be slaves again!
When the beating of your heart
Echoes the beating of the drums
There is a life about to start
When tomorrow comes!


Sorry, that's what I hear in my head when I hear about French civil war/revolution.
 

Tidewater

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IMO, most of the mess in France can be traced back to the way that they handled (or didn't handle) immigration. They allowed huge immigrant populations to enter the country and live together in what amount to segregated communities. These people have not even attempted to learn the language, which makes them virtually unemployable outside of their segregated communities. Poverty is very, very high among these immigrants, and that puts pressure on everyone and everything around them. There are many of these communities which are not even policed because the authority of the French police is not recognized.
There is a lot of merit to this argument.
It started with taking Algeria back in the 1830s not as a colony, but as three départements of France proper, then refusing to enfranchise the Arabs living there. Liberté; fraternité; égalité (except for you lot)
de Gaulle realized this situation was untenable and started the process of de-annexation. The problem was that the 4th Republic had encouraged Algerians to publicly side with the Paris government because Paris told them "We're not going anywhere." Once de Gaulle said, "Uh, yes, we are leaving," tens (hundreds?) of thousands of pro-French Algerians knew that they had to leave or be executed by the FLN, so France allowed them to emigrate. Then their sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, then their grandkids, cousins, neighbors, friends, gardners, etc. etc. all migrated to France.
Now 9% of France is Maghreban and the Arabic-speaking minorities are big enough that immigrants (and their children and grandchildren) do not need to learn French and become culturally French. France has done a poor job of spreading this Arabic-speaking minority around and forcing them to integrate and become Frenchmen of Arab descent.
Plus, France is a very secular society and that does not mesh well with traditional islamic views about religion and the state.
 
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TIDE-HSV

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My daughter who lives there is unconvinced there's much to it, just the French being French and nothing will really happen except perhaps to pull Macron a bit further right before the elections...

Allons enfants de la patrie, le jour de gloire est arrive...
Sure. Sounds better sung...
 

Tidewater

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My daughter who lives there is unconvinced there's much to it, just the French being French and nothing will really happen except perhaps to pull Macron a bit further right before the elections...
I was hoping you would weigh in.
I pretty much agree, the French being French.
Still, the letter was released on the 60th anniversary of the 1961 Generals' Putsch. I am fairly certain that date was not chosen by accident.
And the polling numbers expressed a surprising degree of support. Harris is reputable polling service.
 
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TIDE-HSV

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I was hoping you would weigh in.
I pretty much agree, the French being French.
Still, the letter was released on the 60th anniversary of the 1961 Generals' Putsch. I am fairly certain that date was not chosen by accident.
And the polling numbers expressed a surprising degree of support. Harris is reputable polling service.
I don't think she meant they weren't sincere in their opinions, just that it's typical of the French. Since we started this, Macron has laid a wreath on the tomb of Napoleon on the 200th anniversary of his death...
 

UAH

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I was hoping you would weigh in.
I pretty much agree, the French being French.
Still, the letter was released on the 60th anniversary of the 1961 Generals' Putsch. I am fairly certain that date was not chosen by accident.
And the polling numbers expressed a surprising degree of support. Harris is reputable polling service.
Without suggesting that I know anything about French politics I have been under the impression that there is a significant left wing (as in communist) in French politics. Does this hold true today? In international trade shows I have attended I have encountered a number of French with Southeast Asian surnames. My assumption has been that there is a significant population of Southeast Asians who immigrated from French Colonies. My impression was that Sarkozy, before he ran into legal issues, did a good job of positioning France as an equal in global politics to the UK and Germany. With the right wing pressure Macron is struggling to maintain that.