Creation vs. Evolution vs. Intellegent Design

[Crimson323]

Okay, lets do this. The Islam topic got way off track with about four different sub topics. For creation, evolution, and intellegent design questions and debates, come here. The damage has been done on the Islam thread, but it's not too late to bring the other topic discussions over here.

Let's start with dinosaurs. First, were they real? Second, were they a product of evolution or God's grand design? Or something else? :biggrin2:

BOOM! We're off!

 

[NYBamaFan]

Okay - IMO, they were real, they were part of God's design, and they evolved (which was God's method of development).

Anyone that suggests that they were not real is beyond reach in this debate (or any other debate which involves their religion), so please identify yourself if you do not believe that dinosaurs once walked the Earth...

 

[Crimson323]

I certainly believe that dinosaurs walked the earth. But I am uncertain if God's method was to allow them to evolve. Take crocs and sharks for instance. Are they modern day dinosaurs that survived the elements or did they proceed the era of dinosaurs like most other animals?

 

[NYBamaFan]

I certainly believe that dinosaurs walked the earth. But I am uncertain if God's method was to allow them to evolve. Take crocs and sharks for instance. Are they modern day dinosaurs that survived the elements or did they proceed the era of dinosaurs like most other animals?

Okay, if you believe that they were here, the next question is when. When were they here and why are they gone? One would think that, had they been around, they would have been at least mentioned in the Bible somewhere.

Even if you don't believe in carbon dating, we can be pretty certain that they haven't been around for a very, very long time...

 

[Crimson323]

Dinosaurs were here before the flood, and may have walked with man. But only in the later era's. The Bible mentions the Leviathan and the Behemoth. They could both easily be a crocodile and and elephant, but they may have been refering to a larger reptile(dinosaur) and a mammoth. If dinosaurs were here before man, it wasn't much longer. Maybe about 10,000 years or so. Who knows for sure?

And as for carbon dating, it works well enough. The one problem with it is that if you are testing something and that item has been burned, it will throw off the date by a few hundred years. A special on the History Channel about the Shroud of Turin took aim at carbon dating. I didn't know fossils could be carbon dated.

 

[NYBamaFan]

Dinosaurs were here before the flood, and may have walked with man. But only in the later era's. The Bible mentions the Leviathan and the Behemoth. They could both easily be a crocodile and and elephant, but they may have been refering to a larger reptile(dinosaur) and a mammoth. If dinosaurs were here before man, it wasn't much longer. Maybe about 10,000 years or so. Who knows for sure?

And as for carbon dating, it works well enough. The one problem with it is that if you are testing something and that item has been burned, it will throw off the date by a few hundred years.

One more point about the "when". We know how fossils are created. We know that most fossils take tens of thousands of years to form. We also know that fossil fuel takes millions of years to form. These things would lead one to believe that life has been around for a very long time. Certainly more than 7 thousand years...

 

[Crimson323]

Honest mistake. I didn't specify. I said 10,000 years in reference to how long the behemoth and leviathan(mammoth and dinosaur crocs) may have been here before man. But the total time all dinosaurs have been here, I will go with the standard 65 million years.

 

[Big_Fan]

I can provide three different Christian viewpoints on that.


(1) They are mentioned in the book of Job (the behemoth and Leviathan) and lived alongside of man. (which I don't entirely agree with). This viewpoint would maintain that Job was a contemporary of Enoch and that the dinosaurs were wiped out during the great flood. That does explain the fossilization, oil and coal, as the water and sediment would accelerate their formation...I personally believe that Job was probably a contemporary of Abraham. A number of factors in the book of Job point to the pre-Mosaic period, though the story itself was oral tradition until the 8th century BC. The story of Job was borrowed from in other cultures that came into contact with the Hebrews at dates much earlier than 800BC. Egyptian wisdom literature such as "The Instruction of the Vizier Ptahhotep" (circa 1200BC) and The Babylonian Theodicy "A Dialogue about Human Misery," (Kassite period 1400-1200BC) both drew from the Hebrew narratives and Wisdom literature....personally I believe the leviathan to be a prehistoric crocadilian that was still around in 3000 BC, and the Behemoth to be the mammoth.

(2) The missing time/recreation theory. The creation story is not complete, but a summation. I mentioned this in the other thread... A creator standing at a stationary point in time and space (or outside of time/space) while the universe expands at the speed of light, will experience 7 days. If you apply the time dilation principle (theory of relativity) to this creation paradigm, you can well end up with 4 billion years inside the envelope while 7 x 24 hour days pass for the creator, depending upon actual velocities and rates of acceleration. - This view point has some merit, but can be misused.


For myself, I believe that the dinosaur story is omitted from any cannonical account entirely (as is most of the story of the fall of Lucifer - demons- evil spirits, etc...fwiw). While most evagelicals hold to space/time/matter beginning at the point of creation in Genesis 1:1, I am not so sure. God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. His relational nature demands creation, so I have a hard time believing that he sat in the middle of infinate nothing from time eternal until he decided to create something. I guess I am (figuratively) the Mennonite to the mainstream Evangelical's Amish. What I mean by that is that I believe that everything in the Bible is good (non-exclusive), while mainstream evangelicalism would maintain that anything not in the Bible is not good (exclusionary). My beliefs regarding evolution have little to do with my conservative evangelical stance and more to do with it being a load of hogwash.

Who knows...God may just be messing with us with the placement of dinosaur remains. He does have a sense of humor...ever seen a platypus? I mean... a duck billed egg laying mammal with 90 degree body temp and a poisonous sting??? It's like God had parts left over and decided to use them...the discussion in the Perichoresis was probably something like "Lets see what they say when they find THIS!"

...discuss...

 

[Big_Fan]

I thought we had already discussed the validity of carbon dating?

A radioactive isotope with a 5700 year half life and an unstable rate of decay is not accurate for dating over 10,000 years...and even at less than 10k it can be off by centuries. There are too many external and environmental factors affecting C14.

 

[Big_Fan]

One more point about the "when". We know how fossils are created. We know that most fossils take tens of thousands of years to form. We also know that fossil fuel takes millions of years to form. These things would lead one to believe that life has been around for a very long time. Certainly more than 7 thousand years...

Depending upon external factors, fossilization can happen MUCH faster. Water and sediment can contribute...

 

[Crimson323]

I can provide three different Christian viewpoints on that.


(1) They are mentioned in the book of Job (the behemoth and Leviathan) and lived alongside of man. (which I don't entirely agree with). This viewpoint would maintain that Job was a contemporary of Enoch and that the dinosaurs were wiped out during the great flood. That does explain the fossilization, oil and coal, as the water and sediment would accelerate their formation...I personally believe that Job was probably a contemporary of Abraham. A number of factors in the book of Job point to the pre-Mosaic period, though the story itself was oral tradition until the 8th century BC. The story of Job was borrowed from in other cultures that came into contact with the Hebrews at dates much earlier than 800BC. Egyptian wisdom literature such as "The Instruction of the Vizier Ptahhotep" (circa 1200BC) and The Babylonian Theodicy "A Dialogue about Human Misery," (Kassite period 1400-1200BC) both drew from the Hebrew narratives and Wisdom literature....personally I believe the leviathan to be a prehistoric crocadilian that was still around in 3000 BC, and the Behemoth to be the mammoth.

(2) The missing time/recreation theory. The creation story is not complete, but a summation. I mentioned this in the other thread... A creator standing at a stationary point in time and space (or outside of time/space) while the universe expands at the speed of light, will experience 7 days. If you apply the time dilation principle (theory of relativity) to this creation paradigm, you can well end up with 4 billion years inside the envelope while 7 x 24 hour days pass for the creator, depending upon actual velocities and rates of acceleration. - This view point has some merit, but can be misused.


For myself, I believe that the dinosaur story is omitted from any cannonical account entirely (as is most of the story of the fall of Lucifer - demons- evil spirits, etc...fwiw). While most evagelicals hold to space/time/matter beginning at the point of creation in Genesis 1:1, I am not so sure. God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. His relational nature demands creation, so I have a hard time believing that he sat in the middle of infinate nothing from time eternal until he decided to create something. I guess I am (figuratively) the Mennonite to the mainstream Evangelical's Amish. What I mean by that is that I believe that everything in the Bible is good (non-exclusive), while mainstream evangelicalism would maintain that anything not in the Bible is not good (exclusionary). My beliefs regarding evolution have little to do with my conservative evangelical stance and more to do with it being a load of hogwash.

Who knows...God may just be messing with us with the placement of dinosaur remains. He does have a sense of humor...ever seen a platypus? I mean... a duck billed egg laying mammal with 90 degree body temp and a poisonous sting??? It's like God had parts left over and decided to use them...the discussion in the Perichoresis was probably something like "Lets see what they say when they find THIS!"

...discuss...

You said a mouthful. I agree with point one. It sounds fairly accurate. Point two is interesting, in that I have never heard it before. God is the creator of time and can manipulate it to his liking. It's not much of a stretch to believe that in a span of 7 days for God this earth experienced a radical undertaking over a period of 4 billion years.

As for your personal point of view about God being eternal, the Bible describes God living from "everlasting to everlasting". In that time he may have created worlds and people that are out of our reach and sight. Heaven may be a collection of people from different, but "parallel" worlds. And as for dinosaurs here on earth, I have no doubt he created them. I just don't believe any evolved, but can't say for absolute certain.

And for the record, I love the duckbilled platypus!

 

[NYBamaFan]

Depending upon external factors, fossilization can happen MUCH faster. Water and sediment can contribute...

You put the emphasis on the wrong word. I agree that it has been proven that fossilization CAN happen much faster, but the likelyhood that every fossil was created under those ideal conditions is, well, minute. It is probably safe to assume that most fossils were formed over thousands, or tens of thousands, or millions, of years. Very few were formed quickly as the conditions for such formation are rare. Then again, fossils are also rare.

Even if every fossil discovered to date had been formed quickly, quick fossilization does not account for fossil fuel formation - which takes millions of years...

 

[ValuJet]

This thread will not be complete unless we have some posts by bamabake and blackumbrella.

 

[NYBamaFan]

This thread will not be complete unless we have some posts by bamabake and blackumbrella.

LOL, it needs an injection of blind belief in one over the other, with the non-existant "evidence" to back up those beliefs, to ramp up the vitrol and kill any hope of real debate...

 

[Big_Fan]

You put the emphasis on the wrong word. I agree that it has been proven that fossilization CAN happen much faster, but the likelyhood that every fossil was created under those ideal conditions is, well, minute. It is probably safe to assume that most fossils were formed over thousands, or tens of thousands, or millions, of years. Very few were formed quickly as the conditions for such formation are rare. Then again, fossils are also rare.

Even if every fossil discovered to date had been formed quickly, quick fossilization does not account for fossil fuel formation - which takes millions of years...

The conditions that CAN contribute (1$) to rapid fossilization CAN acclerate the formation of fossil fuels as well. Did it? I don't know...it seems as likely as inorganic matter (could any organic matter survive the big bang and from where did it originate?) fostering the protoplasmic soup that when struck by lightning, or exposed to a random chemical action, created dna - which through natural events developed into a single celled organism that would become the foundation for all organic life.

It is far more likely that we were put here by aliens...and I don't believe that, either.

I don't know it all, but I do know that my great^1000 grandparents were not Cornelius and Zera, and all of life did not start out as a big bowl of snot.

 

[ValuJet]

LOL, it needs an injection of blind belief in one over the other, with the non-existant "evidence" to back up those beliefs, to ramp up the vitrol and kill any hope of real debate...

Well said!

 

[jthomas666]

LOL, it needs an injection of blind belief in one over the other, with the non-existant "evidence" to back up those beliefs, to ramp up the vitrol and kill any hope of real debate...

NYBF, you ignorant slut . . .

There, I've done my part. :wink:

 

[jthomas666]

I don't know it all, but I do know that my great^1000 grandparents were not Cornelius and Zera, and all of life did not start out as a big bowl of snot.

Hmm. Snot was the initial organic material, and all other life evolved as a means to propogate snot in all its various forms. That would explain a lot, actually. Of course, the corollary is that antihistamines are the work of Satan.

 

[cbi1972]

I thought we had already discussed the validity of carbon dating?

A radioactive isotope with a 5700 year half life and an unstable rate of decay is not accurate for dating over 10,000 years...and even at less than 10k it can be off by centuries. There are too many external and environmental factors affecting C14.

How many times must it be said that carbon dating is not the technique used to date very old fossils?

Why is it that Homo Sapien Sapiens stands alone in its branch? Virtually every other primate tribe or family contains many species, yet Homo Sapiens is the only "evolved" simmian?

There are several possible explanations more satisfying than an assertion of impossibility.

As the hominid line increased cognitive capacity, resources that once went to typical animal adaptations, like strength, speed, heightened senses, etc....were redirected into intelligence. There were also adaptations which complemented intelligence, like finer coordination of the muscles of the mouth and throat, which facilitate speech, but which are less than optimal for eating and breathing. Once a language develops, complex planning is possible. Once we become conscious, thinking beings capable of long-term planning, we can set out to deliberately exterminate competition and threats. Human races perceived as "different" by a technologically or evolutionarily "superior" race are liable to be destroyed if they resist, or enslaved if they do not. The Mayans and Incans are no more, and native North Americans were very nearly wiped out by our newfound blood thirst. The same may have happened to rivals of Homo sapiens sapiens.

Or population mixing could have prevented much speciation from occurring. It does seem to have occurred in at least one geographically isolated region, though the species does not survive to the present day (to our knowledge). In 2003, evidence of an isolated population of "cousins" to Homo sapiens was found preserved in a limestone cave on the Indonesian island of Flores. It was named Homo floresiensis.
Local geology suggests a volcanic eruption on Flores 12,000 years ago may have wiped them out along with other unique wildlife, including the dwarf elephant Stegodon. This would make them the longest lasting non-modern human, outlasting Neanderthals by about 17,000 years.

 

[Bama Torch in Pcola]

It does seem to have occurred in at least one geographically isolated region, though the species does not survive to the present day (to our knowledge). In 2003, evidence of an isolated population of "cousins" to Homo sapiens was found preserved in a limestone cave on the Indonesian island of Flores. It was named Homo floresiensis.
Local geology suggests a volcanic eruption on Flores 12,000 years ago may have wiped them out along with other unique wildlife, including the dwarf elephant Stegodon. This would make them the longest lasting non-modern human, outlasting Neanderthals by about 17,000 years.

There is a debate within the scientific community as to whether or not this is a new species. Most believe that this is merely a diseased homo sapien.