Doubting Alabama and predicting Alabama's downfall only makes you look foolish (Josh Pate 1-18 segment)

[BamaInBham]

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The cold, hard reality is that Alabama lost back-to-back games to OLE MISS.
Not LSU. Not Clemson. Not Ohio State. OLE MISS.

Thinking this signaled the end of the dominance was NOT an unreasonable conclusion. At least in the other losses during the run, we had still shown flashes of brilliance combined with stupid decisions, emotional letdowns, and just plain bad luck. That was NOT TRUE (not totally) of the 2015 Ole Miss loss.

I was actually more encouraged after this game than any time since 2013 because of the tremendous fight that Alabama and Coker had shown and felt that if Bama could just win the West they had a chance at a NC. IMO, that game was full of luck for OM. The 5 TOs, the flukey pass that should have been a pick 6 turned into a long TD for them. And by that time Bama was shutting their O down; the other 3rd and very long where Scott appeared (he was not) to be over the LOS and completed another 70+ yd TD pass were beyond frustrating. Yet Bama continued to come back and almost pulled it out. IMO, it was the most life Bama had shown since the end of 2012.

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Clemson 2018 is a different animal altogether that brings together two typical reactions of people that watch college football:
a) overreacting
b) overconcluding

It's always amazing to me how the very same pundits can look at the NFL and dismiss a 30-point regular season win with how things have changed since the previous game. But they look at college ball and evaluate it with a borderline fundamentalist, absolutist zeal that fails to accept nuance or the reality that change among 18-21 year olds might be just as easily imposed with an effective coach.

Yes, Clemson blew out Alabama, 44-16. We had a nationally televised panic attack, and Clemson both deserved to win the game and to be the champions. But the part that makes no sense to me is this - why is Alabama giving up 44 points ONCE "the end of the dynasty" but Clemson gives up 42 points and then 49 points and goes 0-2.....and is ranked #1 AGAIN in the "way too early 2021 rankings" by ESPN.
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IMO, this time was much more of an indication that Alabama's dynasty had run out of gas than 2015. I did not know that it was over, but i began to wonder since it looked like CNS gave up (I'm sure it wasn't true) before halftime. It was the first time I could remember that an Alabama team looked like it had given up (again I assume they didn't really, but it looked like it) in decades. They "looked" like they had quit. It was not the giving up of 44 points, Bama had done that several times before, or even the fact that it looked like Clemson could have scored a couple of more TDs if they had wanted, it was the fact that they looked like they had quit (even though I doubt they did). You can recover from that but it was shocking to long time Bama observers because Alabama almost never quits. But that was obviously not the case from a program standpoint, i.e., whatever happened in that game, CNS was going to continue full bore. But IMO, it was not surprising that "Clemson 2018" appeared to many to be a watershed moment.

 

[81usaf92]

I was actually more encouraged after this game than any time since 2013 because of the tremendous fight that Alabama and Coker had shown and felt that if Bama could just win the West they had a chance at a NC. IMO, that game was full of luck for OM. The 5 TOs, the flukey pass that should have been a pick 6 turned into a long TD for them. And by that time Bama was shutting their O down; the other 3rd and very long where Scott appeared (he was not) to be over the LOS and completed another 70+ yd TD pass were beyond frustrating. Yet Bama continued to come back and almost pulled it out. IMO, it was the most life Bama had shown since the end of 2012.


IMO, this time was much more of an indication that Alabama's dynasty had run out of gas than 2015. I did not know that it was over, but i began to wonder since it looked like CNS gave up (I'm sure it wasn't true) before halftime. It was the first time I could remember that an Alabama team looked like it had given up (again I assume they didn't really, but it looked like it) in decades. They "looked" like they had quit. It was not the giving up of 44 points, Bama had done that several times before, or even the fact that it looked like Clemson could have scored a couple of more TDs if they had wanted, it was the fact that they looked like they had quit (even though I doubt they did). You can recover from that but it was shocking to long time Bama observers because Alabama almost never quits. But that was obviously not the case from a program standpoint, i.e., whatever happened in that game, CNS was going to continue full bore. But IMO, it was not surprising that "Clemson 2018" appeared to many to be a watershed moment.

I think after 2 or 3 months after the game everyone should’ve started to look at what went wrong and reevaluated the season. If they did then they would’ve seen clear warning signs in the LSU, MSU, and Georgia games that should’ve clued everyone in that we weren’t an all time great team that year. What those 3 teams lacked was what Clemson had, a high powered offense to go with a great defense. Locksley had hit his ceiling vs LSU and we were very fortunate to beat Georgia that year.

Locksley reenforced the myth of Venables (Vulnerables according to @crimsonaudio) as being this great DC. His lack of imagination and Tua’s hero antics really hurt us bad in that game. But I really doubt we won regardless because our defense was way too young and banged up to really stop them. But the game was a lot more competitive than what the score suggests. We had several chances in the red zone and goal line to score but the lack of imagination killed us.

My point is that people put way too much in that one game and ignored the warning signs for that team. I have always seen it as a championship that we were lucky to be in that we lost instead of this major shift in college football hierarchy. Had we lost to Georgia and played Texas and let Georgia take the whipping from Clemson then I seriously doubt that anyone would’ve said anything close to the death of the dynasty. ...Maybe one guy on here that says it after every game we lose and thinks Brady isn’t a Top 10 great. But most of the more logical posters wouldn’t take that scenario as hard as what happened in Santa Clara

 

[BamaInBham]

I think after 2 or 3 months after the game everyone should’ve started to look at what went wrong and reevaluated the season. If they did then they would’ve seen clear warning signs in the LSU, MSU, and Georgia games that should’ve clued everyone in that we weren’t an all time great team that year. What those 3 teams lacked was what Clemson had, a high powered offense to go with a great defense. Locksley had hit his ceiling vs LSU and we were very fortunate to beat Georgia that year.

Locksley reenforced the myth of Venables (Vulnerables according to @crimsonaudio) as being this great DC. His lack of imagination and Tua’s hero antics really hurt us bad in that game. But I really doubt we won regardless because our defense was way too young and banged up to really stop them. But the game was a lot more competitive than what the score suggests. We had several chances in the red zone and goal line to score but the lack of imagination killed us.

My point is that people put way too much in that one game and ignored the warning signs for that team. I have always seen it as a championship that we were lucky to be in that we lost instead of this major shift in college football hierarchy. Had we lost to Georgia and played Texas and let Georgia take the whipping from Clemson then I seriously doubt that anyone would’ve said anything close to the death of the dynasty. ...Maybe one guy on here that says it after every game we lose and thinks Brady isn’t a Top 10 great. But most of the more logical posters wouldn’t take that scenario as hard as what happened in Santa Clara

I agree with you completely about the weaknesses of the 2018 team and it was evident after the UGA game and also that it's true that one can read too much into one game or even one season. I'm not talking about the score but the "apparent" attitude, because the difference, at least IMO, was the "look" of quitting in the Clemson game. I never saw that anytime before or since, even in the Utah and USCe beatdowns Alabama battled to the end. I just did not "see" the fight vs Clemson that night from CNS or the team. But looking as a fan you can be deceived about the mindset. But it doesn't matter, whatever their "real" attitude was, they obviously recovered.

From a personal standpoint, I was not convinced it was over, but I wondered and IMO, the optics were the worst of CNS' tenure. So, I can understand why those who wanted to declare the end of the dynasty would do so at that time.

 

[BamaInBham]

The following is a comment from an OSU website: ElevenWarriors. This fan seems to have a real understanding of the true nature of this dynastic run that Alabama/Saban is on . (This is a short article followed by comments which are relatively objective and mostly intelligent. The Dabo-non-lovers will love it.)
Article/thread link

You Can't Spell... 28 JAN 2021, 7:12 PM
Dabo is a great heel, but Saban, one could argue, is single-handedly ruining the sport. It's one thing to create a dynasty, every sport has them, but he's gone beyond that, he's laying waste to everyone in his path.
Past dynasties all reached a point where they lost their throne. The U in the 80s and early 90s got pounded by Bama in '92, and took nearly a decade to get back on top. Nebraska in the 90s took a step back after Osborne retired, but really fell off the mountain after getting *****-smacked by Miami in '01 and firing Solach a couple years later. Miami returned briefly in '01, then the Bucks sent them in a downward spiral they still haven't recovered from. USC lost to Texas in '05 and were never the same. Urban's Gators were on the verge of winning three titles in four years before Saban reentered the fray.
But Bama is different. The Kick-Six could've been their moment to topple, but it wasn't. Losing to the Bucks in '14? Nope. Losing in the literal last second in a rematch to Clemson in '16? Nuh-uh. Getting smoked by Clemson in '18? Pssh. Any one of those should've knocked them off the top, but Saban is college football's Alexander the Great, he just absorbs past demises and it fuels him for future conquests. Seeing the same team on top for so long just gets old (unless it's our team, of course).

 

[81usaf92]

I agree with you completely about the weaknesses of the 2018 team and it was evident after the UGA game and also that it's true that one can read too much into one game or even one season. I'm not talking about the score but the "apparent" attitude, because the difference, at least IMO, was the "look" of quitting in the Clemson game. I never saw that anytime before or since, even in the Utah and USCe beatdowns Alabama battled to the end. I just did not "see" the fight vs Clemson that night from CNS or the team. But looking as a fan you can be deceived about the mindset. But it doesn't matter, whatever their "real" attitude was, they obviously recovered.

From a personal standpoint, I was not convinced it was over, but I wondered and IMO, the optics were the worst of CNS' tenure. So, I can understand why those who wanted to declare the end of the dynasty would do so at that time.

I believe the only one that I was ever concerned of a possible major shift in college football was Ohio St 2014. I think that year proved that Kirby should’ve left after 2012, but what I was most concerned with was CNS blaming Kiffin for 3 bad games and pulling a Gene Stallings and refusing to fully adapt to the new way of college football. I felt we could potentially go back to the Dinosaur offense that we had been for so long.

Clemson 2016 and 2018 I always just felt we lost a game against the national champion. Ohio St felt like a shift in power at the time.

 

[B1GTide]

I believe the only one that I was ever concerned of a possible major shift in college football was Ohio St 2014. I think that year proved that Kirby should’ve left after 2012, but what I was most concerned with was CNS blaming Kiffin for 3 bad games and pulling a Gene Stallings and refusing to fully adapt to the new way of college football. I felt we could potentially go back to the Dinosaur offense that we had been for so long.

Clemson 2016 and 2018 I always just felt we lost a game against the national champion. Ohio St felt like a shift in power at the time.

I thought it would be the beginning of an Alabama/OSU dual dynasty. Sadly, the Bucks have not been able to close out a season since.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

2018- We had people on here believing that Clemson overtook us that night. In some cases it felt like a few here were mildly happy about the supposed “paradigm shift”. But anyone that wasn’t Tua drunk had reservations about the 2018 team after the MSU game. It really wasn’t an all time great team as a whole and we actually had subpar coordinators that year. Anyone that believed Clemson overtook us that night after 2 months to get over it probably doesn’t know football as much as they think. Alabama has too many things that it has overcame to really put doubts off of one game. It’s almost like the KC massacre of the Patriots when everyone believed the Patriots were done. People are too focused on being the person that predicts the end to make good conclusions to what they actually saw.

Well, Pate kind of covered that in the above video, too (thanks for providing that - I just discovered that guy about 2 weeks ago, and he's......well, he's like me!!).

But ONE GAME does not magically transform anything, either. His point about programs versus teams was excellent and certainly more succinct than anything I ever say even if I say the same thing.

 

[81usaf92]

I thought it would be the beginning of an Alabama/OSU dual dynasty. Sadly, the Bucks have not been able to close out a season since.

I would actually prefer That over having Clemson win 2.

 

[Bill from NYC]

Scott Cochran leaving - number of people with brains who actually gave a damn about this: zero. Saban has lost far more important pieces of the engine over the year than Cochran.

100% agree. I think that losing Cochrane actually helped the team. That said, I hope that he does well as long as he is not playing us.

 

[TideEngineer08]

I agree with you completely about the weaknesses of the 2018 team and it was evident after the UGA game and also that it's true that one can read too much into one game or even one season. I'm not talking about the score but the "apparent" attitude, because the difference, at least IMO, was the "look" of quitting in the Clemson game. I never saw that anytime before or since, even in the Utah and USCe beatdowns Alabama battled to the end. I just did not "see" the fight vs Clemson that night from CNS or the team. But looking as a fan you can be deceived about the mindset. But it doesn't matter, whatever their "real" attitude was, they obviously recovered.

From a personal standpoint, I was not convinced it was over, but I wondered and IMO, the optics were the worst of CNS' tenure. So, I can understand why those who wanted to declare the end of the dynasty would do so at that time.

The reason it "looked" like we had quit, goes to the point 81usaf92 makes about the offense we were running. It was a one trick pony, and Clemson had solved that riddle, and we had nothing to answer with. At a certain point, it becomes like trying to knock a hole in a brick wall with just your fist. You can fight as hard as you can, but you're only going to end up with a bloodied and broken hand.

 

[Con]

I maintain that if we had a better kicking game that year we may have competed a little better in that game versus Clemson in 2018. If you miss an extra point that makes you decide to not try field goals and go for it every 4th down if you are close. Seems like we at least did that once or twice during that game.

 

[The Ols]

100% agree. I think that losing Cochrane actually helped the team. That said, I hope that he does well as long as he is not playing us.

He's @ UGA...I hope he fails miserably...