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4Q Basket Case

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The Brits have a complicated history. Mostly involving the development of stupendous principles, but with a history of castes and of not living up to their stated convictions. Especially as it regards land.

The 4-century long problems in Northern Ireland date, as Tidewater has pointed out, to the 1603 "movement" of Scots (NOT "Scotch") to Ulster. Essentially, the English dispossessed the native Irish and planted Scots on their land, at the point of a gun.

The fact that the Scots were primarily Protestant (mainly Presbyterian) and the dispossessed Irish were primarily Catholic was a convenient dividing line that extends to today. But it's largely irrelevant to the true conflict....which at its core isn't religious. It's about who rightfully owns the land.

Then the English did it again with the lesser-known Highland Clearances. Only this time the Scots were on the receiving end of the red-hot poker. Whereas 200 years prior the English had given Scots land on which Irish had lived and worked, now the Scots would be the dispossessed ones.

Thousands of Scots were forcibly removed from their homes, often with little to no notice, to be "settled" elsewhere. It was done in two phases, one in the mid 1700s and the next in the late 1700s through the early 1800s.

Reasoning? To change the use of the land from non-economic subsistence farming to more profitable sheep (i.e., wool) grazing and to consolidation into larger farms that generated economies of scale. IOW, to pay off patrons of The Crown.

At their best, the Brits provided a wonderful framework on which to build a country. At their worst, they were some brutal and untrustworthy &)(*)(*&s. They're some complicated folks -- neither as benign as the shining knights they like to picture themselves as being, nor the most evil people ever to walk the earth as some others think of them.

And yes, I recognize the parallels between the US and the Native Americans. I'm still wrestling with that one.
 
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Tidewater

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I keep posting this because I find it interesting.

Here is an excerpt from an an examination of Joseph Galloway (a Pennsylvanian loyal to the Crown), before Parliament in 1779. When the colonies were enlisting troops, the authorities wrote down their place of origin.

Question.—That part of the rebel army that enlisted in the service of the Congress, were they chiefly composed of the natives of America, or were the greatest part of them English, Scotch and Irish?
Answer.—The names and places of their nativity being taken down, I can answer the question with precision. There were scarcely one-fourth natives of America—about one-half Irish—the other fourth were English and Scotch."
John Brown Dillon, Notes on Historical Evidence in Reference to Adverse Theories of the Origin and Nature of the Government of the United States of America, (New York: S. W. Green, 1871), 56.

Now, this is one data point from Philadelphia early in the Revolution, but it is interesting. The "Irish" he was talking about were Irish protestants, many Ulster Scots. By 1775, they were spoiling for a fight.

Leyburn The Scotch-Irish.

James Webb, Born Fighting

Many landed in Philadelphia, moved west to the Great Valley, pivoted around Gettysburg, then southwest up the Shenandoah Valley, spilled over to the east side of the Blue Ridge Mountains and into central North Carolina and western South Carolina. Their descendants spread west across the South.
The Scotch-Irish shared some salient characteristics (not every one of them, but in general): devotion to the Protestant brand of Christianity, contempt for formal education, heightened sense of honor and resenting of insults, and a tendency to physical violence. Do any of those sound familiar?
 
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4Q Basket Case

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I haven’t read Leyburn’s book, but have read Webb’s.

It’s really instructive, detailing the path of the Scots-Irish from their near-prehistoric origins on the island of Ireland, to Scotland, back to Ireland, then to the US….along the way essentially inventing American culture.

It’s also a fair portrait — warts and all. Good points and failings. Recommended reading.
 
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Tidewater

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I haven’t read Leyburn’s book, but have read Webb’s.

It’s really instructive, detailing the path of the Scots-Irish from their near-prehistoric origins on the island of Ireland, to Scotland, back to Ireland, then to the US….along the way essentially inventing American culture.

It’s also a fair portrait — warts and all. Good points and failings. Recommended reading.
I am facinated by cultural history (not culture defined by sculpture and opera, but culture as in "a set of predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize a group or organization"). One of the best books on cultural history I have read was David Hackett Fischer's Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America. It is about why British immigrants from different parts of Britain thought and acted differently and continued to do so in America. Very important and influential book.
 

UAH

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I keep posting this because I find it interesting.

Here is an excerpt from an an examination of Joseph Galloway (a Pennsylvanian loyal to the Crown), before Parliament in 1779. When the colonies were enlisting troops, the authorities wrote down their place of origin.


John Brown Dillon, Notes on Historical Evidence in Reference to Adverse Theories of the Origin and Nature of the Government of the United States of America, (New York: S. W. Green, 1871), 56.

Now, this is one data point from Philadelphia early in the Revolution, but it is interesting. The "Irish" he was talking about were Irish protestants, many Ulster Scots. By 1775, they were spoiling for a fight.

Leyburn The Scotch-Irish.

James Webb, Born Fighting

Many landed in Philadelphia, moved west to the Great Valley, pivoted around Gettysburg, then southwest up the Shenandoah Valley, spilled over to the east side of the Blue Ridge Mountains and into central North Carolina and western South Carolina. Their descendants spread west across the South.
The Scotch-Irish shared some salient characteristics (not every one of them, but in general): devotion to the Protestant brand of Christianity, contempt for formal education, heightened sense of honor and resenting of insults, and a tendency to physical violence. Do any of those sound familiar?
My Scots-Irish maternal Grand Father was said to be the 1st person to cross the Catawba River by wagon into what is now Charlotte, NC. I came from a long line of Irish sharecroppers and dirt poor cotton farmers on both sides of the family.
 

Tidewater

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My Scots-Irish maternal Grand Father was said to be the 1st person to cross the Catawba River by wagon into what is now Charlotte, NC. I came from a long line of Irish sharecroppers and dirt poor cotton farmers on both sides of the family.
Ulster-Scots were some hard-nosed tough folks and drew the short straw in a lot of cases.
On the other hand, by virtue of their perseverance, they have produced some great Americans.
Presidents Jackson, Grant, Cleveland. Generals Stonewall Jackson, N. B. Forrest, George S. Patton.
 

92tide

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My Scots-Irish maternal Grand Father was said to be the 1st person to cross the Catawba River by wagon into what is now Charlotte, NC. I came from a long line of Irish sharecroppers and dirt poor cotton farmers on both sides of the family.
my paternal side all came through that area of north carolina. that side was mostly german and came into the states sometime in the mid 1700s
 
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