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TIDE-HSV

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but Europe was able to draw their lines fairly naturally. I'd argue that was not the case for most of the rest of the world including the entire western hemisphere. Go back 200 years and there is little discernible difference between Juarez and El Paso or San Diego and Tijuana or for that matter Maine and Eastern Canada. In fact if language is the determining factor most of Texas all the Way to San Francisco should be a part of Mexico. Maine and a huge swatch of French Canada should be it's own Country and large portions of the great plains should be varying countries of indigenous peoples. Alaska would be half Canadian, half Russian, Hawaii would be it's own thing, same for Puerto Rico and the USVI, etc.

Sorry Earl but I'd say your argument only works for Europe and parts of Asia, everywhere else has too much artificiality in their borders due to colonialism and conquest
I actually covered that in my first post on borders. I know it only works when people are free to draw their own. My larger point stands - borders are natural to humankind...
 

Jon

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I actually covered that in my first post on borders. I know it only works when people are free to draw their own. My larger point stands - borders are natural to humankind...
yet there were no borders in the America's nor in sub Saharan Africa prior to white folks showing up. So maybe they are natural to European Cultures and not so much everywhere else
 

Go Bama

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yet there were no borders in the America's nor in sub Saharan Africa prior to white folks showing up. So maybe they are natural to European Cultures and not so much everywhere else
There have been borders since there were two tribes. Tanzanian blacks are more closely related to Caucasians than they are to west African blacks according to DNA evidence. The reason humanity spread out of Africa was because tribal borders made it the path of least resistance.
 

Jon

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There have been borders since there were two tribes. Tanzanian blacks are more closely related to Caucasians than they are to west African blacks according to DNA evidence. The reason humanity spread out of Africa was because tribal borders made it the path of least resistance.
this is from the "Native Lands Project" started in 2015


I don't borders here, I see ranges

https://native-land.ca/
 
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TIDE-HSV

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yet there were no borders in the America's nor in sub Saharan Africa prior to white folks showing up. So maybe they are natural to European Cultures and not so much everywhere else
Where on earth are you getting this utopian idea. It's just flat wrong...
 

Jon

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Where on earth are you getting this utopian idea. It's just flat wrong...
I should have said few borders and I guess it depends on your definition of border as well. Mine would include fixed locations that did not vary and were permanently maintained. Did that exist in pre-colonial America?

my definition of range would be a general area where a nomadic people generally travel. As I am sure you know that often varied wildly based on drought, animal range, etc. Look at the map I posted how many areas are claimed by multiple groups? Sure there is a history of war between tribes over areas but that doesn't make for a border in my mind
 

TIDE-HSV

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I should have said few borders and I guess it depends on your definition of border as well. Mine would include fixed locations that did not vary and were permanently maintained. Did that exist in pre-colonial America?

my definition of range would be a general area where a nomadic people generally travel. As I am sure you know that often varied wildly based on drought, animal range, etc. Look at the map I posted how many areas are claimed by multiple groups? Sure there is a history of war between tribes over areas but that doesn't make for a border in my mind
Well, the answer to your first question is "yes," among the Six Civilized Tribes. The Cherokee and Creek both were farmers, settled into villages, just as in neolithic Europe. The only nomadic Amerindian tribes were in the great plains where scarce, and mobile, resources dictated a nomadic lifestyle. You seem to be under the impression that the nomadic lifestyle was the norm. It wasn't. Perforce, only a small minority of populations were involved in it. The huge majority were settled in pre-Columbian America, just as in Eurasia. You didn't begin to see nomads until you reach the Steppes in the east and then not very many of them. Likewise, you didn't see them here until you reached the short-grass prairie and the plains Amerindians. The Creek and Cherokee (and other eastern tribes) would argue fiercely with your contention that they had no borders...
 

TIDE-HSV

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I should have said few borders and I guess it depends on your definition of border as well. Mine would include fixed locations that did not vary and were permanently maintained. Did that exist in pre-colonial America?

my definition of range would be a general area where a nomadic people generally travel. As I am sure you know that often varied wildly based on drought, animal range, etc. Look at the map I posted how many areas are claimed by multiple groups? Sure there is a history of war between tribes over areas but that doesn't make for a border in my mind
It occurs to me that your vision is extremely Eurocentric. After all, the savages here couldn't have had borders... :)
 

Jon

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It occurs to me that your vision is extremely Eurocentric. After all, the savages here couldn't have had borders... :)
Lol, yeah I'd agree actually and appreciate the education. My knowledge of Early America is limited to one insufferable semester in a 9 AM Ten Hoor Hall m/w/f giant lecture room that I nearly always over slept and missed. In fact if not for a great freshman room mate I'd have failed that class by sleeping through the exam
 

TIDE-HSV

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Lol, yeah I'd agree actually and appreciate the education. My knowledge of Early America is limited to one insufferable semester in a 9 AM Ten Hoor Hall m/w/f giant lecture room that I nearly always over slept and missed. In fact if not for a great freshman room mate I'd have failed that class by sleeping through the exam
The developing view is that the population of the Americas was many millions more than the "empty" land found by the Europeans after the Spaniards. These populations were decimated by European diseases. (The Amerindians got a little tit for tat by giving syphilis back to the Europeans.) Satellite archaeology has shown that the Amazonian jungles contain vast abandoned cities. The natives fled into the jungle, weakened by disease, and broke off contact with the outside world. Back in the early '80s, NatGeo magazine had a picture of Amazonian Indians carrying a litter, with some sort of dignitary on it. Their bodies had been painted to resemble Spanish conquistadors, armor and all. They had even plucked out their hair into a tonsure. (They don't go bald.) I was dating a Puerto Rican girl at the time. When I pointed it out, she said "Who told you that?" (That was not a long-lasting relationship. :)) Later, when I read in the book "1493," about the abandoned cities, the picture from the magazine jumped into my mind. Eureka!
 

TIDE-HSV

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Lol, yeah I'd agree actually and appreciate the education. My knowledge of Early America is limited to one insufferable semester in a 9 AM Ten Hoor Hall m/w/f giant lecture room that I nearly always over slept and missed. In fact if not for a great freshman room mate I'd have failed that class by sleeping through the exam
You brought back a memory, but of Woods Hall. For a crip course, I signed up for "Roman Private Life" in the summer. I don't remember the professor's name, but, first session, he began with remarks to the effect that we weren't going to study world-shaking issues, just learn some interesting facts about the Romans. YES! Just what I wanted and needed. He was drunk. Shortly they shipped him off for the cure. His replacement was Dr. Perry, head of the Latin department at the time. He made the course ridiculously difficult and I made a "C." I also have a lot of Roman trivia stored away in my brain I didn't need to know. Did you know Romans cleaned their butts with communal sponges after toilet? :D
 

92tide

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You brought back a memory, but of Woods Hall. For a crip course, I signed up for "Roman Private Life" in the summer. I don't remember the professor's name, but, first session, he began with remarks to the effect that we weren't going to study world-shaking issues, just learn some interesting facts about the Romans. YES! Just what I wanted and needed. He was drunk. Shortly they shipped him off for the cure. His replacement was Dr. Perry, head of the Latin department at the time. He made the course ridiculously difficult and I made a "C." I also have a lot of Roman trivia stored away in my brain I didn't need to know. Did you know Romans cleaned their butts with communal sponges after toilet? :D
file this under "and just what have the romans ever given us"
 

TIDE-HSV

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The developing view is that the population of the Americas was many millions more than the "empty" land found by the Europeans after the Spaniards. These populations were decimated by European diseases. (The Amerindians got a little tit for tat by giving syphilis back to the Europeans.) Satellite archaeology has shown that the Amazonian jungles contain vast abandoned cities. The natives fled into the jungle, weakened by disease, and broke off contact with the outside world. Back in the early '80s, NatGeo magazine had a picture of Amazonian Indians carrying a litter, with some sort of dignitary on it. Their bodies had been painted to resemble Spanish conquistadors, armor and all. They had even plucked out their hair into a tonsure. (They don't go bald.) I was dating a Puerto Rican girl at the time. When I pointed it out, she said "Who told you that?" (That was not a long-lasting relationship. :)) Later, when I read in the book "1493," about the abandoned cities, the picture from the magazine jumped into my mind. Eureka!
I'm sure if Trump saw the turbans worn by Cherokee males, he'd definitely wanting to be sending them back where they came from. I'm sure they'd being saying the same about him and his family... :D

Sequoia.jpg
 

crimsonaudio

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I should have said few borders and I guess it depends on your definition of border as well. Mine would include fixed locations that did not vary and were permanently maintained. Did that exist in pre-colonial America?
It didn't exist post-colonial America, either - the US borders changed dramatically over the last two centuries...

Just because they're stable now doesn't mean they won't change in our lifetime.