In a flash, a changed world: 75th anniversary of Hiroshima

Tidewater

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I think it was The History Channel who aired a special on that time in Japan several years ago. It reenacted the days between the two bombs with a focus on events in Japan. Can't remember the name of it.

Interesting article from the BBC. No matter your opinion on the decision it was a terrible decision to be made - invasion or dropping the bomb. I hope we have learned enough as a species to never reach the point it is considered again.
The current regime in the Kremlin talks about using nuclear weapons as a de-escalatory measure in an international crisis. If a shooting war breaks out involving Russia, the Russians nuke, say, Birmingham, England, and say to the Brits, "Things can get worse. Do you wish to de-escalate or shall we ramp things up a bit?" Hoping that the Brits will take any off-ramp. Scary but true.
 
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Padreruf

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The current regime in the Kremlin talks about using nuclear weapons as a de-escalatory measure in an international crisis. If a shooting war breaks out involving Russia, the Russians nuke, say, Birmingham, England, and say to the Brits, "Things can get worse. Do you wish to de-escalate or shall we ramp things up a bit?" Hoping that the Brits will take any off-ramp. Scary but true.
The real country to worry about is not a country per se, but fanatical Islam. If they get their hands on nukes then I am convinced they will be used sometime, somewhere -- as much to prove a point as to "win" any battle. They have no sense of "justice" that is in any degree workable -- and so are immune to ethical discussions. Just War Theory doesn't work in their case.
 

Elefantman

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What would the difference have been had we actually targeted Tokyo instead of Hiroshima?
Has anyone read where that was actually discussed?
I’m curious if Truman truthfully knew the power that was being unleashed with the first one.
The city of Hiroshima was intentionally spared from bombing prior to dropping the atomic bomb. We wanted to see how much damage one bomb would inflict on a pristine city.
 

crimsonaudio

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Interesting article from the BBC. No matter your opinion on the decision it was a terrible decision to be made - invasion or dropping the bomb. I hope we have learned enough as a species to never reach the point it is considered again.
We haven't. Thinking we're any different than mankind from 10,000 years ago is a pipe dream.
 
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TIDE-HSV

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If the Allies had bombed Tokyo, they would probably have killed the only person in Japan who had the authority to surrender (the emperor).
This is what I remember reading. Nuking Tokyo and taking out the emperor would have made governing post-war Japan impossible, so it was rejected as a strategy. BTW, despite the widespread damage to Tokyo, to the amazement of the occupiers, essential services were operational, trains running on time, etc. A third bomb was on its way when Japan surrendered a week after Nagasaki. We had 12 more and the plan was to drop them, one after the other, on "demonstration cities," until they finally caught on. The damage to Hiroshima and even Nagasaki was widely disbelieved and discounted as impossible or greatly exaggerated, until more reconnaissance was done by the government. A lot of historians who want to believe the bomb was necessary have pointed to the entry of the USSR into the war as being the real reason for the surrender. However, Hirohito referenced the bomb in his speech to the people and that's enough for me...
 
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UAH

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Interesting video released this week by Mark Felton, British historian.

This is the story of the secret 'Black Lancasters', a specially trained RAF unit that was to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima on 6 August 1945. Why? Because the American B-29 Superfortress couldn't do it! Find out how this extraordinary situation arose and how the Americans managed to perform the mission in the end.
It appears obvious from this that the Brits were prepared to drop the bombs if the Americans were unable to handle the payload. Something altogether new to me.

 

Tidewater

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This is what I remember reading. Nuking Tokyo and taking out the emperor would have made governing post-war Japan impossible, so it was rejected as a strategy.
Something we learned again in Iraq. Once you decapitate the regime you are fighting, who is going to surrender. Now, we did not kill Saddam in the initial invasion, but we did drive him underground and that left Iraq with no functioning government.
 

TIDE-HSV

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Something we learned again in Iraq. Once you decapitate the regime you are fighting, who is going to surrender. Now, we did not kill Saddam in the initial invasion, but we did drive him underground and that left Iraq with no functioning government.
And then we cleaned out the only people who knew how to run a government or army. We did far better with the Germans, even if it did involve some gagging...
 

TIDE-HSV

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Interesting video released this week by Mark Felton, British historian.



It appears obvious from this that the Brits were prepared to drop the bombs if the Americans were unable to handle the payload. Something altogether new to me.

I quit at 12:02. It's British-centric and British-apologist. British pilots were never considered. They would never be considered for a mission so domestically politically-charged. It's not a chauvinistically-determined choice at all, with as many as 15 bombs to deliver. Integration of command and the fact that the Lancasters were not capable of reaching Japan without inflight refueling were huge obstacles. This was when that technique was in its infancy. Do you really want to work out the wrinkles on that with atomic weapons aboard? No, you go with B-29s from Okinawa, which can comfortably reach the Japanese mainland and return. Once it's determined that the crews must be American, then retro-training on the Lancaster for the crews had to be considered and weighed against modifying the familiar aircraft. This was not the first time this issue had arisen in the war. After the Sweinfürt debacle, which proved the B-17 couldn't attack without escort, the British strongly urged the US to convert to night bombing and to consider flying the Lancaster with its 10-meter long bomb bay, which was designed for masses of incendiaries. This was rejected, owing to the retro-training of American pilots for night bombing and the inadequacy of the B-17 (like the later B-29) being designed for conventional bombs. I think the WIKI is a more balanced treatment...

Silverplate
 
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Tidewater

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And then we cleaned out the only people who knew how to run a government or army. We did far better with the Germans, even if it did involve some gagging...
Nazis in public office, like Baathist Party members in Iraq require some judgment. You have to look at the individual, his family, and other contextual clues. What the individual a party member by inclination and ideology? Or was his membership in the party merely a requirement for whatever public job he held?
In the case of the Nazis, the Americans were sometimes a bit more than willing to overlook a Nazi's party affiliations. Was the guy a famous rocket scientist? Was he sitting on a huge archive of intelligence on the Soviets? Und so weiter.
 

TIDE-HSV

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Nazis in public office, like Baathist Party members in Iraq require some judgment. You have to look at the individual, his family, and other contextual clues. What the individual a party member by inclination and ideology? Or was his membership in the party merely a requirement for whatever public job he held?
In the case of the Nazis, the Americans were sometimes a bit more than willing to overlook a Nazi's party affiliations. Was the guy a famous rocket scientist? Was he sitting on a huge archive of intelligence on the Soviets? Und so weiter.
Und - wir haben Fehler gemacht. Viele, wirklich, aber "W" hat Tausende gemacht...
 

TIDE-HSV

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We didn't have a stock pile of A bombs at that time. After Fat Man was dropped on Narasaki our A bomb supply equaled zero. We wouldn't have another bomb ready for weeks or months. Dropping a bomb for demonstration would of been a waste and may have given the signal we were not willing to drop one on a city.
IDK where you read this, but it's untrue. The core for bomb number three was ready to ship to Tinian when Truman stopped it. The following is from NatGeo this year:

The most difficult part of the process, making the fuel for the bombs—enriched uranium and plutonium—consumed almost all of the expense and labor. In July 1945 the United States had produced enough fuel for three complete bombs—“Gadget” (plutonium), “Little Boy” (uranium), and “Fat Man” (plutonium)— with almost enough plutonium left over for a fourth. The Manhattan Project’s factories could produce enough fuel for a little under three and a half bombs per month, but tweaks to the designs of the bombs were being considered that would allow them, if the war continued, to produce several more bombs per month.
In fact, that was the battle plan. There was no thought that one or two bombs would cause a surrender. The plan was to continue producing bombs to be used in conjunction with an invasion of the Japanese mainland. It was never a "two-shot" wonder proposition...
 

Tidewater

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IDK where you read this, but it's untrue. The core for bomb number three was ready to ship to Tinian when Truman stopped it. The following is from NatGeo this year:



In fact, that was the battle plan. There was no thought that one or two bombs would cause a surrender. The plan was to continue producing bombs to be used in conjunction with an invasion of the Japanese mainland. It was never a "two-shot" wonder proposition...
In fact, I think the plan for "softening up the beach defenses" on Kyushu involved dropping six A-bombs before landing American troops.
 

crimsonaudio

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In fact, I think the plan for "softening up the beach defenses" on Kyushu involved dropping six A-bombs before landing American troops.
Seven were expected to be ready for Operation Olympic, but 12-15 were thought to be needed to truly soften up the southern zone. Of course, US forces were recommended to wait '~48 hours' before landing to reduce exposure. 😲
 
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TIDE-HSV

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Seven were expected to be ready for Operation Olympic, but 12-15 were thought to be needed to truly soften up the southern zone. Of course, US forces were recommended to wait '~48 hours' before landing to reduce exposure. 😲
Scary, isn't it, how benignly we regarded radiation at the time. I broke a metatarsal dropping from the top of the jungle gym in the first grade when the recess bell rang. The primitive x-rays of the time showed nothing. After I limped for six weeks, my parents took me to old Dr. Sherrill, the first orthopedist in Birmingham. I wore orthopedic shoes through the sixth grade, high-top brown leather, which marked me psychologically for the rest of my life. Every month, I had to go down to be refitted. They did it by sticking my foot into what amounted to a fluoroscope over and over and having me wiggle my foot. There is no telling how many rem I've absorbed over the years, beginning then...
 

Padreruf

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Scary, isn't it, how benignly we regarded radiation at the time. I broke a metatarsal dropping from the top of the jungle gym in the first grade when the recess bell rang. The primitive x-rays of the time showed nothing. After I limped for six weeks, my parents took me to old Dr. Sherrill, the first orthopedist in Birmingham. I wore orthopedic shoes through the sixth grade, high-top brown leather, which marked me psychologically for the rest of my life. Every month, I had to go down to be refitted. They did it by sticking my foot into what amounted to a fluoroscope over and over and having me wiggle my foot. There is no telling how many rem I've absorbed over the years, beginning then...
Those shoes really explain a lot...LOL!
 
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