It's Time to End the "War on Drugs"

B1GTide

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This one officer was responsible for the killing of at least two innocent people and this unit with the conviction of 14,000 cases. None of those convictions can be trusted. Not a single one. Wasted money and lives. All should be released (standard caveats apply) and compensated for their trouble. Their records should be wiped clean. The officer and anyone else who knew or were a part of what was happening should go to prison for a very long time.
Every conviction should be overturned and the defendants retried.
 

B1GTide

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Google Tony Rackauckas. He has been a judge and DA in Orange County, CA for 30 years. He lost his attempt for his 6th term as DA in 2018, but the carnage he has left behind is amazing. Orange County may have to revisit every case that he touched in his entire career because the new DA has evidence that he totally fabricated evidence in a very public case during the election cycle. Essentially, he made up evidence and sensationalized it to help him get reelected.

During his tenure, he covered up criminal conduct by police officers, hired and fired prosecutors based on their willingness to follow his "rules" and treated the justice system as his personal playground, where he made the rules up as he went along.
 

NationalTitles17

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Wow. This goes right along with it:


And here's a story about the doctor, who was accused with his girlfriend of drugging and raping victims:


All very troubling. I'm afraid it's the tip of the iceberg. Dirty cops and dirty DA's motivated by power and money have corrupted the system. The system itself has been corrupted for a long time. And these guys protect each other instead of us. The more we get them out of our lives and restrict their powers the better.
 

Bama 8Ball

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The Libertarian in me wants all drugs legalized...but then I see pictures and read stories about San Francisco where there is virtually no drug law enforcement. Open use of needles and crack pipes...One article I read interviewed two volunteers who stated they picked up between 300 and 500 used needles EACH DAY from San Fran sidewalks and parks.

They have business owners losing customers due to the homeless defecating on sidewalks and urinating on the shop doors. I don't know what the answer is. I feel pretty confident that continuing to give politicians blank checks and throwing more money at it is not the answer. Hard drug addiction is not something you can talk someone out of. They have to have an internal drive to kick the habit, for some that doesn't come until they are looking up at rock bottom. Again, I don't know the answer. Legalize all drugs and just let them fend for themselves like they seem to do in San Fran? OK, but you have to allow law abiding citizens some protections for their property/livelihood.
 
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RollTide_HTTR

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Feds say ‘star’ DEA agent Jose Irizarry stole millions in money-laundering conspiracy involving drug cartel criminals he was charged with fighting abroad

A once standout Drug Enforcement Administration agent, Jose Irizarry is accused of conspiring with a longtime DEA informant to launder more than $7 million in illicit drug proceeds, sometimes using an underground network known as the black-market peso exchange, according to five current and former law enforcement officials.
Different direction but this one was good too. This case came up one of my annual training courses at work for anti money laundering.
 
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Bamabuzzard

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The Libertarian in me wants all drugs legalized...but then I see pictures and read stories about San Francisco where there is virtually no drug law enforcement. Open use of needles and crack pipes...One article I read interviewed two volunteers who stated they picked up between 300 and 500 used needles EACH DAY from San Fran sidewalks and parks.

They have business owners losing customers due to the homeless defecating on sidewalks and urinating on the shop doors. I don't know what the answer is. I feel pretty confident that continuing to give politicians blank checks and throwing more money at it is not the answer. Hard drug addiction is not something you can talk someone out of. They have to have an internal drive to kick the habit, for some that doesn't come until they are looking up at rock bottom. Again, I don't know the answer. Legalize all drugs and just let them fend for themselves like they seem to do in San Fran? OK, but you have to allow law abiding citizens some protections for their property/livelihood.

I can live with legalizing pot. But legalizing across the board would be an absolute disaster. I've got two family members that have served multiple prison sentences for not only taking the drugs. But their illegal behavior while tripped out on the drug or their illegal behavior trying to get money to buy the drug. I wonder if those who would be released from the legalizing of all drugs wouldn't end up back in prison for their behavior of being on the drugs? I've witnessed too much destruction within my own family to be be okay with legalizing drugs across the board.
 
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B1GTide

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I can live with legalizing pot. But legalizing across the board would be an absolute disaster. I've got two family members that have served multiple prison sentences for not only taking the drugs. But their illegal behavior while tripped out on the drug or their illegal behavior trying to get money to buy the drug. I wonder if those who would be released from the legalizing of all drugs wouldn't end up back in prison for their behavior of being on the drugs? I've witnessed too much destruction within my own family to be be okay with legalizing drugs across the board.
I have too, my brother, but what we see around the world tells us that criminalization does not lower drug use in any way. We have to be smart enough to learn from our mistakes. Criminalization is clearly a mistake.
 

Jon

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I can live with legalizing pot. But legalizing across the board would be an absolute disaster. I've got two family members that have served multiple prison sentences for not only taking the drugs. But their illegal behavior while tripped out on the drug or their illegal behavior trying to get money to buy the drug. I wonder if those who would be released from the legalizing of all drugs wouldn't end up back in prison for their behavior of being on the drugs? I've witnessed too much destruction within my own family to be be okay with legalizing drugs across the board.

the problem here is that there is no Libertarian answer (his post you are responding to) as we need both legalization/Decriminalization (Libertarian) and real full mental health care in this country (Socialist) . The majority of these people on the streets on the worst drugs could benefit from both legal safe options and from real care that they are absolutely not getting.

And to compare to San Fran is a miss too as it is widely known that Cities all over the Western half of this country perform "Greyhound therapy" handing out bus tickets to SanFran in their towns to the homeless/addict/in need of mental health care people in their towns. Making SF's issues different than what may happen in a "normal" city
 

Bama 8Ball

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And to compare to San Fran is a miss too as it is widely known that Cities all over the Western half of this country perform "Greyhound therapy" handing out bus tickets to SanFran in their towns to the homeless/addict/in need of mental health care people in their towns. Making SF's issues different than what may happen in a "normal" city
The point about San Fran was more to illustrate that :
A.) They have more billionaires per capita than anywhere in the world along with some of the highest taxes and cost of living...
B). For all intents and purposes, they have a "hands off" Decriminalization" approach to enforcement of drug laws...
C). No sane person would look at their drug/ homeless situation and think that it is a good model.

I agree that the issues are severe, and may not be an apples to apples comparison to what may happen in Tuscaloosa, Al, but I would bet money that if you stopped enforcing drug laws in Birmingham, it would look very similar in a few years.
 
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Jon

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Because of the drug laws - you need to do some research. Decriminalization has worked around the world, and in some very scary places.

Look up Portugal.

thats what I was going to say and had just pulled and read this to back my case.
 

NationalTitles17

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@Bama 8Ball and @Bamabuzzard , I'm on lunch so don't have the time now but I'll try to swing back around this evening. Others have hit on a few points. First, though, let's not conflate drugs with homelessness - there is overlap, but most who use drugs live in a home and even work. Throwing people in prison has not worked in 100 +/- years of doing it. Some great points above on mental health and drug treatment.

Anyone consider this idea needs to study - and I mean STUDY - Portugal's experience with decriminalization. It has been a resounding success.

Meanwhile, we have 50x the OD death rate, many times the HIV and Hep C infection rates, and a higher % of the population using here compared to there.

I don't want legalization of hard drugs so more people do it and die. Quite the opposite - I want less people using and FAR fewer dying.

Remind me of the definition of insanity according to many people again...
 
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Bamabuzzard

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@Bama 8Ball and @Bamabuzzard , I'm on lunch so don't have the time now but I'll try to swing back around this evening. Others have hit on a few points. First, though, let's not conflate drugs with homelessness - there is overlap, but most who use drugs live in a home and even work. Throwing people in prison has not worked in 100 +/- years of doing it. Some great points above on mental health and drug treatment.

Anyone consider this idea needs to study - and I mean STUDY - Portugal's experience with decriminalization. It has been a resounding success.

Meanwhile, we have 50x the OD death rate, many times the HIV and Hep C infection rates, and a higher % of the population using here compared to there.

I don't want legalization of hard drugs so more people do it and die. Quite the opposite - I want less people using and FAR fewer dying.

Remind me of the definition of insanity according to many people again...

I did read it and THAT makes sense. However, there is A LOT and I mean A LOT more to what they're doing than just decriminalizing it. It's not the decriminalization that's driving the success. It basically admits that in the article. It seems to be a softer, more drawn out, gradual detox process, along with addressing underlying issues that maybe causing the drug use.

However, the detail in that article is rarely used by people in our country that advocate decriminalization.The loudest narrative is decriminalizing is the answer. When according to the article. That is nowhere near the case.

It’s misleading, however, to credit these positive results entirely to a change in law.
 

NationalTitles17

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I did read it and THAT makes sense. However, there is A LOT and I mean A LOT more to what they're doing than just decriminalizing it. It's not the decriminalization that's driving the success. It basically admits that in the article. It seems to be a softer, more drawn out, gradual detox process, along with addressing underlying issues that maybe causing the drug use.

However, the detail in that article is rarely used by people in our country that advocate decriminalization.The loudest narrative is decriminalizing is the answer. When according to the article. That is nowhere near the case.
Real quick - and I'll come back this evening - but I agree. I have mentioned mental health, drug treatment, and other concerns from the beginning. Decriminalization IS PART of the answer, though. It is as much as MUST as other parts that need to be done.
 

B1GTide

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Real quick - and I'll come back this evening - but I agree. I have mentioned mental health, drug treatment, and other concerns from the beginning. Decriminalization IS PART of the answer, though. It is as much as MUST as other parts that need to be done.
The biggest lift you get in decriminalization is the elimination of the stigma associated with drug use. That is one of the biggest problems. You cannot get people who feel worthless and who are treated like they are garbage into meaningful treatment.

These laws hurt people. Millions of people. Every single day. Decriminalization is not enough by itself, but any program that does not include decriminalization will not work. The proof is out there for anyone who really wants to understand.
 
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Bamabuzzard

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Real quick - and I'll come back this evening - but I agree. I have mentioned mental health, drug treatment, and other concerns from the beginning. Decriminalization IS PART of the answer, though. It is as much as MUST as other parts that need to be done.
Yes, it is the initial part to allow the components that actually produce the success to work. But when trying to sell the idea to a country and change it's stance. We need to stop making it sound like simply changing the law is going to magically fix anything. Which is what most people hear. Because it won't. It won't "fix" one single person's drug problem. It will just keep them from getting locked up while continuing to do drugs.

There's another component to this problem as well. The system addresses current drug users. But there needs to be something in place to try and keep people from getting to that point of becoming drug users. I do have a question. In decriminalizing all drugs, are we going to allow all drugs to be recreationally sold as marijuana is being sold in some states?
 

B1GTide

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Yes, it is the initial part to allow the components that actually produce the success to work. But when trying to sell the idea to a country and change it's stance. We need to stop making it sound like simply changing the law is going to magically fix anything. Which is what most people hear. Because it won't. It won't "fix" one single person's drug problem. It will just keep them from getting locked up while continuing to do drugs.

There's another component to this problem as well. The system addresses current drug users. But there needs to be something in place to try and keep people from getting to that point of becoming drug users. I do have a question. In decriminalizing all drugs, are we going to allow all drugs to be recreationally sold as marijuana is being sold in some states?
Yes. It doesn't work otherwise. But the product will be consistent and reliable. It will be so much safer than that sold on the streets as to be incomparable. Also, money made through the sale would fund treatment.
 

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