"Iwo Jima ... set a record of human evil."

[Tidewater]

Even so, it's still a strange choice. Okinawa was a far, far bloodier battle...

Yes, Oki was bloodier and involved the deaths of civilians, many by their own hand. Both were nasty, but there were almost no civilians on Iwo.

 

[Tidewater]

We can discuss larger or more diabolical evils, but certainly Iwo Jima was a pure evil act in fighting a worthless fight that could no be won by the Japanese and wasting nearly every Japanese life as well as a ton of US soldiers.

You do realize that Iwo was seized as a divert airfield for bombers flying from Saipan to Japan and back, right?

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Yes, Oki was bloodier and involved the deaths of civilians, many by their own hand. Both were nasty, but there were almost no civilians on Iwo.

As I remember, there wasn't really much of a civilian population and what was there was evacuated to Honshu, well before the battle started. It's really just the top of a volcano and tiny...

 

[TIDE-HSV]

You do realize that Iwo was seized as a divert airfield for bombers flying from Saipan to Japan and back, right?

And we needed that airfield to bomb Japan within easy range...

 

[UAH]

You do realize that Iwo was seized as a divert airfield for bombers flying from Saipan to Japan and back, right?

By war's end, a total of 2,451 B-29s made forced landings on the island. This figut re represented an estimated 26,961 flight crewmen, many of whom would have perished at sea without the availability of Iwo Jima as a safe landing strip. One B-29 pilot said, "Whenever I land on this island I thank God for the men who fought for it."

It also deprived Japan of an airport that would enable attacks on B-29s and shipping that would be required to mount attacks on the home islands.

 

[seebell]

I was trying to be charitable.
Maybe you are right. If you are, she is just criminally stupid.
Here's the quote: "The days when, you know, Iwo Jima unfortunately happened and set a record for really what – hate to say – human evil is capable of."
One could say, "The Japanese fought fanatically and sometimes illegally against my countrymen, but fortunately, my country was victorious, although at a tragic cost."
What is the "human evil" she is talking about? Japanese fanaticism and violations of the law of armed conflict? If so, why is the battle which saw their defeat "unfortunate?"

rest of her remarks:

Iwo Jima happens to fall on the same day as Executive Order 9066, which was issued 80 years ago now and today marks Japanese Day of Remembrance, recognized by the White House a few days ago. Japanese Day of Remembrance is a painful moment that commemorates when our government decided to detain some 120,000 innocent, unassociated Japanese Americans by kidnapping them from their homes and forcing them into incarceration on the mere basis of their identities.

Abrar Omeish then stated: “Japanese Remembrance Day reminds us of the evil human beings are capable of, the diverse emotions and complex meanings February 19th has for a variety of members of our community, and the importance of recognizing each of these varied realities in forging a narrative of US, not a narrative of some—as we commit to building better for the next generation and a future that honors all.”

Surely you consider the deaths of so many young men on both sides as "unfortunate" at the least?

I knew she didn't look Japanese!! She is Libyan!

Who is abrar omeish?

Abrar currently serves as a School Board Member At-Large in Fairfax County, overseeing a three-billion-dollar budget for 1.2 million constituents right outside of Washington, DC. She is the first Libyan ever elected in US history and the first Muslim and youngest ever elected in her role, earning over 161,000 county votes. Abrar co-founded an organization providing thousands of underprivileged youth with free tutoring and mentorship in 20 locations over the past ten years.

After serving in several appointed capacities locally and working as a senior organizer at the DNC, Abrar served as a legal fellow at a human rights and immigration law firm in Northern Virginia and has been a spokeswoman for the #NoMuslimBanEver campaign. Abrar was most recently a Virginia Co-Chair for the Bernie Sanders campaign and a Virginia PLEO and Rules Committee member to the Democratic National Convention. She holds a double bachelors with honors from Yale University and is a current dual MPP/JD candidate at Georgetown.

 

[UAH]

For those interested in an account of the decision to drop the bomb, I recommend Louis Morton's essay in the free online book Command Decisions.
American (and yes, Japanese) casualties should an invasion be necessary figured into the calculations.
So did the Soviets joining the war effort in August 1945.
And, the question, "Will it actually function?"
This is a good essay.

Two issues bug me about this debate every August. I notice the one clamoring loudest are not the ones who would have had to hit the beaches on Kyushu and Honshu.
One criticism I have no time for is the argument that "we did not give the Japanese a chance to surrender." I about came unglued in ten Hoor when a colleague suggested that. There was a Soviet Embassy in Tokyo until 1 August 1945. They could have surrendered any time they wanted.
The one critique of Allied conduct I will accept is that the heads of State declared in Potsdam (26 July 1945) that "unconditional surrender" as the objective. In the end, we agreed to allow the emperor to remain on the throne of a demilitarized Japan. If we were willing to accept that, we should have stated as much in Potsdam. That would have saved a lot of lives, both American and Japanese. Morton points out that the Emperor was a major sticking point for Japanese willing to surrender.

As I recall the decision to retain the the Emperor wasn't made until the effort to reconstruct Japan began with a tremendous amount of discussion between MacArthur's Office in Tokyo and Washington.

 

[Tidewater]

rest of her remarks:


Abrar Omeish then stated: “Japanese Remembrance Day reminds us of the evil human beings are capable of, the diverse emotions and complex meanings February 19th has for a variety of members of our community, and the importance of recognizing each of these varied realities in forging a narrative of US, not a narrative of some—as we commit to building better for the next generation and a future that honors all.”

Surely you consider the deaths of so many young men on both sides as "unfortunate" at the least?

I knew she didn't look Japanese!! She is Libyan!

Who is abrar omeish?

Abrar currently serves as a School Board Member At-Large in Fairfax County, overseeing a three-billion-dollar budget for 1.2 million constituents right outside of Washington, DC. She is the first Libyan ever elected in US history and the first Muslim and youngest ever elected in her role, earning over 161,000 county votes. Abrar co-founded an organization providing thousands of underprivileged youth with free tutoring and mentorship in 20 locations over the past ten years.

After serving in several appointed capacities locally and working as a senior organizer at the DNC, Abrar served as a legal fellow at a human rights and immigration law firm in Northern Virginia and has been a spokeswoman for the #NoMuslimBanEver campaign. Abrar was most recently a Virginia Co-Chair for the Bernie Sanders campaign and a Virginia PLEO and Rules Committee member to the Democratic National Convention. She holds a double bachelors with honors from Yale University and is a current dual MPP/JD candidate at Georgetown.

None of which changes what she said.
"The days when, you know, Iwo Jima unfortunately happened and set a record for really what – hate to say – human evil is capable of."
That sentence stands alone. In her later clarification, she could have said the "human evil" she was talking about was Japanese militarism, unprovoked invasions of peaceful neighbors, the Rape of Nanking, scientific experiments on captives, etc. and she is thankful for the sacrifices of the brave Marines, her countrymen, who died fighting against that evil.
Instead she chose to accuse others of bias and did not clarify her remarks.

 

[Tidewater]

As I recall the decision to retain the the Emperor wasn't made until the effort to reconstruct Japan began with a tremendous amount of discussion between MacArthur's Office in Tokyo and Washington.

I agree. Morton does not talk about U.S. occupation policy, but I believe Doug agreed to recommend the retention of the Emperor to keep the Japanese in line.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

None of which changes what she said.
"The days when, you know, Iwo Jima unfortunately happened and set a record for really what – hate to say – human evil is capable of."
That sentence stands alone. In her later clarification, she could have said the "human evil" she was talking about was Japanese militarism, unprovoked invasions of peaceful neighbors, the Rape of Nanking, scientific experiments on captives, etc. and she is thankful for the sacrifices of the brave Marines, her countrymen, who died fighting against that evil.
Instead she chose to accuse others of bias and did not clarify her remarks.

I think she's confused between Okinawa and Iwo Jima...

 

[crimsonaudio]

I think she's confused between Okinawa and Iwo Jima...

I'm sticking with stupid. Nothing I've seen thus far in this thread gives me a reason to feel otherwise.

 

[NationalTitles18]

We bypassed quite a few fortified islands but attacked IJ. Why? Because taking it allowed us to have airfields close enough to strike the Japanese mainland.

Calling the sacrifice of thousands of brave Marines 'worthless' is hardly worthy of reply, other than to share my disgust.

That's not how I read it. I read it as if they were saying that the Japanese fight was worthless because there was no way to win.

 

[Tidewater]

That's not how I read it. I read it as if they were saying that the Japanese fight was worthless because there was no way to win.

That is an interesting take. And you might be right.
Why she added, "hate to say" to the sentence is left unexplained.
If she hated the pointlessness of Japanese resistance on Iwo Jima, why does she "hate to say" that Japanese defense was pointless?
Honestly, I suspect she is just not well informed about the Pacific War and if she was, she would be more circumspect in her pronouncements.

 

[seebell]

Worthless? I must have missed that I don't see the word " worthless". Where is it?

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Worthless? I must have missed that I don't see the word " worthless". Where is it?

I believe that was in her after-clarification...

 

[crimsonaudio]

Worthless? I must have missed that I don't see the word " worthless". Where is it?

I got it from this post: https://www.tidefans.com/forums/threads/iwo-jima-set-a-record-of-human-evil.332642/#post-4021199

 

[seebell]

I got it from this post: https://www.tidefans.com/forums/threads/iwo-jima-set-a-record-of-human-evil.332642/#post-4021199

Thanks CA, I thought everybody was saying the school board member said "worthless".

 

[Tidewater]

National Championships 18 also used the word "worthless" (and maybe meant "hopeless" since he went on to say that there was no way the Japanese were going to win Iwo Jima).

We now live in a society that casts people out for saying dumb things. Sometimes for saying ambiguous things that could indicate the speaker really is stupid, or said something ambiguous that could be interpreted as stupid.
The school board member said something that could reasonably be taken to mean that the American effort to conquer Iwo Jima "set a record ... what ... human evil is capable of." She added "hate to say," which is a phrase used when some member of a group to which the speaker belongs does something wrong.
She did not say the "hate to say" phrase when speaking of the Japanese interment. She said it in the sentence about the US effort to conquer Iwo Jima. The meaning of that is quite unambiguous. Some member of a group to which she belongs did something at Iwo Jima for which she feels shame or chagrin. I would like to know what act and what group.

It is possible she meant that the Japanese interment was an example of human evil. If so, "hate to say" was in the wrong sentence. She could have explained that war itself set an example what human evil is capable of. Saint Augustine, Saint Thomas Aquinas, and Hugo Grotius took issue with that assertion. It depends what a nation-state is fighting for (jus ad bellum), and how it goes about fighting the war (jus in bello). Perhaps Ms. Omeish is asserting that the United States fought in a bad cause in 1941-45. Perhaps she is arguing that the Marines at Iwo Jima fought in a dishonorable or unethical manner. Either assertion is heinous and ignorant, and, in my view, disqualifying for public office, but, due to the exertions of better men than her, she is free to hold heinous, ignorant positions.
I think she ought to have the courage of her convictions and explain what she meant rather than hiding behind the ambiguity and accusing her critics of simple bias.

 

[mdb-tpet]

We bypassed quite a few fortified islands but attacked IJ. Why? Because taking it allowed us to have airfields close enough to strike the Japanese mainland.

Calling the sacrifice of thousands of brave Marines 'worthless' is hardly worthy of reply, other than to share my disgust.

Worthless on the Japanese part only. They sacrificed 99% of the men for a small time delay in the inevitable when they could have and should have surrendered. Don't worry, I'll never call our Marine's sacrifices worthless.

 

[crimsonaudio]

Worthless on the Japanese part only. They sacrificed 99% of the men for a small time delay in the inevitable when they could have and should have surrendered. Don't worry, I'll never call our Marine's sacrifices worthless.

I appreciate the clarification, thank you.