Me too, he said, she said (spin off from "oh cuomo" but without politics)

[tattooguy21]

I saw that the recent thread has moved into sexual assault allegations and as always, right vs left. Instead, while removing party affiliations and wealth from the equation (yes, I believe ((and can provide links)) wealthy break laws and even when caught have a lesser chance is facing similar penalties as the rest of us), can we talk about sexual assault allegations.

You can't have it both ways and I would say, based off the United States judicial system, one of these two beliefs is actually contrary to what we espouse.

1) believe women/ believe all women
2) innocent until proven guilty.

I'll share a personal story that, while it didn't change my mind about any of this, did reinforce it. I was accused of rape once. The facts were;
Eighteen years old
barracks party
Made out with a girl (1st base equivalency)
Left the party because I was the new guy and those senior to me wanted me to relief their buddy on duty so he could come party (which I did).

The next day the girl claims I raped her. She goes on to explain the whole thing, how everyone (8 of them) went to waffle house just after midnight (12:44am), came back and then it happened in her room. She then called her ex-boyfriend who she'd recently broken up with at 3:27 to tell him what had happened. That morning she made the complaint to the chaplain then military police.

Being on staff duty that night was the best thing that ever happened to me, because from 11:30pm until 3:30am I had been on security camera, with my First Sergeant, picking up a Staff Sergeant from the jail in Clarksville, TN for DUI. Maybe I was the last thing she really remembered before getting really drunk. Maybe (and we kinda do) all look alike when we first join the service.

My point is, my life and career were almost destroyed before they had even began because of this. As soon as the initial charges came I was lucky because these facts were known regarding my location. It couldn't meet the requirements for Courts Martial.

I believe women get raped. I believe that whoever did it should get to enjoy living in fear of the same in prison. But I also know mistakes are made, and that's why a case has to be prosecuted. He said she said is real, and while it may sound unreasonable, apply the same logic to nearly any other argument based situation. It didn't take on the same horrendous overtones did it? I think women, especially young women during sex education) should be educated in exactly what they should do in the event that they have been raped. I know much of this will come off without empathy, it has to. Because facts and data is how you win a case like this. I've worked on about 14-20 rape cases (paralegal for prosecution in JAG). I saw the same thing over and over; took a shower, waited a week (up to 3 months) to make the complaint, "I was drunk, I think..." or did other things that reduced the likelihood of a conviction, at least in the eyes of a jury.

I understand it's a traumatic experience, but if the person wants justice, they need to do what needs to be done in a timely manner. I'm sure there are even websites now (that didn't exist then) that give these step by step instructions.

And the girl from the story......whoever it was got away. She was deadest that it was me, and unwilling to budge that it could be anyone else. Even after they showed her pictures of me during the entire timeframe at the police station. It's just how her brain processed the situation.

 

[Tug Tide]

In 12 months I’ll be sending my oldest son off to college. I’ve discussed this countless times with him.

 

[92tide]

 

[92tide]

An Epidemic of Disbelief

What new research reveals about sexual predators, and why police fail to catch them

www.theatlantic.com

 

[tattooguy21]

An Epidemic of Disbelief

What new research reveals about sexual predators, and why police fail to catch them

www.theatlantic.com

This crap is unacceptable and a failure of the policing community. This far exceeds the "he said she said" premise and should be tantamount to interfering with an investigation.

 

[Bamaro]

One of the biggest problems is alcohol. Sons need to be taught that after some point of intoxication, a girl looses any reasonabe ability to give consent.

 

[B1GTide]

One of the biggest problems is alcohol. Sons need to be taught that after some point of intoxication, a girl looses any reasonabe ability to give consent.

I taught both of my boys that having sex with a drunk girl is rape. Even if she consents, she may later say that she was too drunk to consent. And, even if she does not press charges, you have now deeply scarred a woman.

 

[MobtownK]

There are false allegations. But many police just don't care about rape or assaults. And many girls and women don't come forward. I have a friend who was picked up by the cops when she was 16... The cops were insinuating things that they could do to get out of being taken in. They made phony promises, and escaped the parked squad car.

For acquaintance rape, sometimes the guy will go and tell his friend what the girl did, so that any accusation is then seen as invalid - because word already got out what happened, just the wrong interpretation of it. If the girl is too scared to come forward - then all anyone remembers is the guy's side.
Some women take years to come forward - because they aren't believed. It's shameful. They don't tell their parents, friends, or eventually their spouses. And if they didn't fight back hard enough, or not at all because they were scared, they may blame themselves.

My daughter is only 6, but she is feisty, and doesn't take crap from anyone. She's loud, and not a pushover. I'm thrilled.
I've talked to my oldest (12) about exactly what consent is, and even how to defend yourself against rape.

 

[tattooguy21]

One of the biggest problems is alcohol. Sons need to be taught that after some point of intoxication, a girl looses any reasonabe ability to give consent.

That has always struck me as odd. The belief is that one can be too drunk to consent, but not too drunk to commit (the crime in this case). Alcohol is a defense against consent only? I mean, was the other person (in the examples here being female) not committing as well, and the male consenting? At any point if she (without getting too gutter) conducts any sexual act on him, has she not now become a rapist if the next day he claims rape? Because he had regrets, a girlfriend, genuinely didn't want to etc?

This is without going down the rabbit hole that is men not filing sexual assault charges (which are surprisingly compared to what I thought they'd be in search).

 

[92tide]

This crap is unacceptable and a failure of the policing community. This far exceeds the "he said she said" premise and should be tantamount to interfering with an investigation.

but it does show what a challenge it can be for women to report incidents sexual assault/rape in what people consider an appropriate and timely manner

 

[tattooguy21]

. If the girl is too scared to come forward - then all anyone remembers is the guy's side.
Some women take years to come forward - because they aren't believed. It's shameful. They don't tell their parents, friends, or eventually their spouses. And if they didn't fight back hard enough, or not at all because they were scared, they may blame themselves.

This is my point though. The stigma can be removed. Within a single generation. How you, how I have taught our daughters. That's a clear a deliberate change from the past. Don't wait for school our society to catch up. The owness out with parents to help raise daughters that aren't victims and aren't shamed.

I did the same for my kid. Martial Arts/defense classes, weapons training, whistles, mace, tazers and when she leaves college a concealed carry permit, additional concealed carry courses, a year long gift certificate to a local range, and the weapon of her choice is my graduation gift. She understands these things don't make her invincible, and her best defense is to avoid these situations as much as possible. But things like date rape or acquaintance happen, that you had no red flags or reason to believe you were in danger. I've done my best to send her out into the world to identify problem areas, avoid them, but when those options aren't available, defend herself.

 

[tattooguy21]

but it does show what a challenge it can be for women to report incidents sexual assault/rape in what people consider an appropriate and timely manner

I 100% agree with you, and believe how we change that is by what we teach our daughters. "I felt guilty, like it was my fault." I was shocked the first time I was taking a statement from a victim and she said that. Thought it was a line only from the movies. I asked her (my bedside is unorthodox, but gets a smile and helps people realize the insanity of that thinking) "if I walked up to a 5 year and punched them in the face and they said those same words, would you sit there and agree or....." Sorry, military humor is dark, but it always got the point across. Victims shouldn't feel shame. The stigma that has somehow permeated us until today.....it shouldn't be there.

And what's taught in the home can override what society puts out. If you think you're a victim, report it. If your aren't sure what's going on, contact via phone, internet, locally one of the crises centers, religious leaders, respected/ loved ones. Whoever you feel is a good source to help you. If you feel shame, it has to be overcome. It has to. If that's the thing preventing you from pursuing, you're literally harming yourself and possibly others in the future. Don't let yourself be victimized twice.

 

[Bazza]

This is a huge topic that deserves more attention and would welcome more coverage in the mainstream media that provides as much guidance and information as possible - for all parties/both sexes.

 

[92tide]

I 100% agree with you, and believe how we change that is by what we teach our daughters. "I felt guilty, like it was my fault." I was shocked the first time I was taking a statement from a victim and she said that. Thought it was a line only from the movies. I asked her (my bedside is unorthodox, but gets a smile and helps people realize the insanity of that thinking) "if I walked up to a 5 year and punched them in the face and they said those same words, would you sit there and agree or....." Sorry, military humor is dark, but it always got the point across. Victims shouldn't feel shame. The stigma that has somehow permeated us until today.....it shouldn't be there.

And what's taught in the home can override what society puts out. If you think you're a victim, report it. If your aren't sure what's going on, contact via phone, internet, locally one of the crises centers, religious leaders, respected/ loved ones. Whoever you feel is a good source to help you. If you feel shame, it has to be overcome. It has to. If that's the thing preventing you from pursuing, you're literally harming yourself and possibly others in the future. Don't let yourself be victimized twice.

i fully agree that we need to help support our daughters and teach them to advocate for themselves. but we also have to realize that being the victim of sexual assault/rape is an extremely traumatic experience and not everyone (not due to their own faults, mind you) are able to process that and go effectively advocate on their own behalf while overcoming the massive headwinds they are often forced to face.

additionally, the problems that we see vis a vis to sexual assault report problems aren't really due to victim's shame or lack of willingness to follow through on their accusations. they are due to a system (law enforcement, school administration, churches, workplaces, sometimes parents) that doesn't take victims seriously and/or wants to gloss over the issues, for many reasons. there are tons of women/women's groups that have been trying to address this for long periods of time, they have made occasional progress, but it has been, and continues to be an uphill battle.

 

[B1GTide]

JMO, but I believe that almost every report of sexual abuse or rape is based on events that actually took place, and that the person accused is guilty almost every time. Anecdotes aside (it seems that everyone knows someone who was falsely accused - most of these stories are pure fabrication), real studies show that when women actually come forward, the guy did it. We have had this discussion a few times on the football board.

 

[MobtownK]

This is my point though. The stigma can be removed. Within a single generation. How you, how I have taught our daughters. That's a clear a deliberate change from the past. Don't wait for school our society to catch up. The owness out with parents to help raise daughters that aren't victims and aren't shamed.

I did the same for my kid. Martial Arts/defense classes, weapons training, whistles, mace, tazers and when she leaves college a concealed carry permit, additional concealed carry courses, a year long gift certificate to a local range, and the weapon of her choice is my graduation gift. She understands these things don't make her invincible, and her best defense is to avoid these situations as much as possible. But things like date rape or acquaintance happen, that you had no red flags or reason to believe you were in danger. I've done my best to send her out into the world to identify problem areas, avoid them, but when those options aren't available, defend herself.

Things weren't the same in the 90s. And from a 40ish perspective, it's easy to see what a 8th grader should have done. But when you are the kid, it may not matter whether it's 2021, 1993, or 1950. It's still scary. But what does matter - if it's been discussed in the home. Have Mom or Dad told them about what happens in the world. If it's never been discussed at all, or only with shame - the kid or woman (or man) is much less likely to say anything to anyone.

I will say things have gotten better though. And I'm glad for your daughter & mine that both of us are teaching them this way. Too many people still don't though. And not just the daughters, but the sons too. When mine are wrestling and one wants separation - the other better comply, because we respect each other. Even annoying brothers & sisters. We also don't force hug on relatives. Don't want to hug? Cool - just don't be rude about it.

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

I'm not saying that more sex education for Women isn't necessary, it probably is.

But Shouldn't the emphasis here be how do we keep men from seeing women as objects that they can do whatever they want with?

It seems like we are putting essentially all the burden of preventing this on the victims which I think is a bit insane.

 

[tattooguy21]

additionally, the problems that we see vis a vis to sexual assault report problems aren't really due to victim's shame or lack of willingness to follow through on their accusations. they are due to a system (law enforcement, school administration, churches, workplaces, sometimes parents) that doesn't take victims seriously and/or wants to gloss over the issues, for many reasons. there are tons of women/women's groups that have been trying to address this for long periods of time, they have made occasional progress, but it has been, and continues to be an uphill battle.

And this is reflected in the article you posted. There needs to be a backstop, some form of IA that is confirming the blocks are checked, the kits tested, the statements taken and investigations followed through on. Even then, sadly, I've seen cases that couldn't be prosecuted or were persecuted and not won. It did come down to a he said she said, and at that point you just have two people telling a different version of the same story. But it doesn't even get that far often enough due to the reasons you listed above.

Regardless of that @B1GTide, while I'll throw full support to get the alleged victim whatever they need to have their day in court with all assets available to them, I refuse to change to guilty until proven innocent edict. I promise, if you're ever falsely accused of any crime, you'll understand why the preponderance of evidence is on the prosecution, and be thankful for it. As a society, hell, as a species, we LOVE a bad guy. We love a villain. Someone to hateand really against. And who's easier to hate than a rapist or molester?

It's been shown that juries have a greater bias in rape cases against the accuser than nearly in other form of case (https://www.plaintiffmagazine.com/r...uncovering-juror-bias-in-sexual-assault-cases).

I don't know how you fix that, except on voir dire, even then good luck.

 

[tattooguy21]

I'm not saying that more sex education for Women isn't necessary, it probably is.

But Shouldn't the emphasis here be how do we keep men from seeing women as objects that they can do whatever they want with?

It seems like we are putting essentially all the burden of preventing this on the victims which I think is a bit insane.

Is it/ are we? Let's be honest here. What midteen person in the US couldn't tell you
1) if rape is illegal or legal and
2) what the definition of rape is?

The educating women bit is like the last resort stuff I talked about earlier. More tools for them if they need them and hopefully removing it at least tamping down of the stigma associated with the reporting process.

For the men....don't break the freaking law.

 

[RollTide_HTTR]

Is it/ are we? Let's be honest here. What midteen person in the US couldn't tell you
1) if rape is illegal or legal and
2) what the definition of rape is?

The educating women bit is like the last resort stuff I talked about earlier. More tools for them if they need them and hopefully removing it at least tamping down of the stigma associated with the reporting process.

For the men....don't break the freaking law.

I mean look at all your asking women to do (right after an extremely traumatic event) and then following up with, "men don't break the law."

Why should we not put more emphasis on changing men's mindsets, its not just about what is rape and is it illegal its about how a lot of men fundamentally view women and their bodies. It is much deeper than just "this is wrong don't do it"