Game Thread: NLDS Braves vs Cardinals (Best of 5)

[BamaNation]

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[UATank]

Folty pitched a heck of a game. Fried has been big out of the pen. Only a matter of times before our bats wake up, or at least I hope they wake up

 

[selmaborntidefan]

I changed my will yesterday so that I have six Atlanta Braves as pall bearers at my funeral.

That way they can let me down one last time.

Glad we got out with a split, but it should be 2-0.

 

[CB4]

I do not understand the philosophy of putting melancon in. It’s not like he really established himself as true closer IMHO.

Why not keep fried in until someone gets a hit?



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I’m there with you. This thing of “going to the closer” even though the guy that pitched the previous inning(s) is sitting them down drives me nuts.

 

[BamaInBham]

They lost because of Bobby, not some "curse". He never understood that playoff games are more important than regular season games, and he never instilled the need to never waste an at bat in his players. He treated every game exactly the same way while the competition treated the games as if they were the last that they would ever play.

Bobby Cox was a great manager. It took a few years for me to realize it, but he was great. As with all, he made mistakes, I guess the greatest was with Bielicki/Wohlers in 96 game 5 vs NYY, but overall he was a truly great manager. Just like football coaching, managing is much more than in-game strategy and moves. Managing people, having the respect of all around him, e.g., Gary Sheffield called him Mr. Cox, talent evaluation, etc. But his strategy was much better than some realize. Occasionally, he would overwork a closer and make other mistakes but he knew what he was doing.

 

[BamaInBham]

Sorry, Bobby did it 14 years in a row, with one accidental win. Worst Ever

Hate to say it but you have no idea what you are talking about :smile:. I'm surprised at your take.

"Accidental win", ha.

Every Atlanta team had either one or two serious flaws. They always had good to great reg season starting pitching and good to great D, but they usually were offensively lacking and/or lacked in the bullpen. Starting pitching, especially finesse pitchers like Maddux and Glavine, is less important in a short series. That is why their ERA was not quite as good in the post season - hitters won't chase like the reg season. OTOH, power pitchers are best because adrenalin and lack of dependence on finesse helps. Hence, Smoltz was easily their best post season pitcher. He would lose focus during the reg season but come PS, he would turn it up a notch and his power pitching would enable him to perform much better.

But Bobby always had teams with fatal flaws. If Turner had maintained control of the franchise he would have eventually spent the money necessary to
address those issues. Cox did a great job with what he had. 14 division titles in a row - amazing. Doubtful any manager will have that much success again. Kudos to you Mr. Cox.

 

[BamaInBham]

I think if we win Game 3 then it’s going to be DK. I think at this point you have to play Folty in Game 5.




We play in St Louis on Sunday.

Agree completely. That may be part of the thinking in pulling him after only 81 pitches, though many of those pitches were under at least some stress with only a 1-0 lead all game. IMO, Snitker did a great job of setting up the PS rotation. Many would have used Fried or Julio instead of pitching MF in game 2. I like everything about his rotation - the personnel and sequence.

 

[81usaf92]

Hate to say it but you have no idea what you are talking about :smile:. I'm surprised at your take.

"Accidental win", ha.

Every Atlanta team had either one or two serious flaws. They always had good to great reg season starting pitching and good to great D, but they usually were offensively lacking and/or lacked in the bullpen. Starting pitching, especially finesse pitchers like Maddux and Glavine, is less important in a short series. That is why their ERA was not quite as good in the post season - hitters won't chase like the reg season. OTOH, power pitchers are best because adrenalin and lack of dependence on finesse helps. Hence, Smoltz was easily their best post season pitcher. He would lose focus during the reg season but come PS, he would turn it up a notch and his power pitching would enable him to perform much better.

But Bobby always had teams with fatal flaws. If Turner had maintained control of the franchise he would have eventually spent the money necessary to
address those issues. Cox did a great job with what he had. 14 division titles in a row - amazing. Doubtful any manager will have that much success again. Kudos to you Mr. Cox.

I think Ted Turner phoned it in after 96 and was just a manager that only cared about the bottom line. I think had he not been so committed to out doing Vince McMahon at the time then we could’ve gotten better offensive players.

 

[81usaf92]

Actually let’s create new threads for each game starting game 3.

Braves in 4!


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You’re the boss. So let’s do it. Go bravos

 

[BamaInBham]

I think Ted Turner phoned it in after 96 and was just a manager that only cared about the bottom line. I think had he not been so committed to out doing Vince McMahon at the time then we could’ve gotten better offensive players.

Yeah, and a bullpen more than one deep: McMichael, Marvin Freeman, Clontz, et al.

Even though he may have been monetarily invested, did he not enter an arrangement where he gave up operational control? Then eventually sold his interest? Seems like maybe he and Jane became interested in environmental issues or "world needs" or something like that and/or he wanted to spend time on his property in Idaho/Montana/wherever? He lost interest in such immature/macho/carnal efforts such as "winning ball games"? Then he regretted it after he got out. I don't remember. The 96 series was a killer - that could have been a springboard to a real dynasty, instead it kicked off the Yankees who were dead in that series til the foul ball that Dye butchered which led to a hot Neagle leaving the game, then Cox taking out Bielecki who was on fire and putting in Wohlers who was usually lights for one inning but always struggled with the rare 2 inning save.

Aren't they now in sports purgatory being corporately owned but it seems like they have a sharp GM? I don't keep up that closely anymore, just a bandwagoner. Please correct me where I'm wrong.

 

[81usaf92]

Yeah, and a bullpen more than one deep: McMichael, Marvin Freeman, Clontz, et al.

Even though he may have been monetarily invested, did he not enter an arrangement where he gave up operational control? Then eventually sold his interest? Seems like maybe he and Jane became interested in environmental issues or "world needs" or something like that and/or he wanted to spend time on his property in Idaho/Montana/wherever? He lost interest in such immature/macho/carnal efforts such as "winning ball games"? Then he regretted it after he got out. I don't remember. The 96 series was a killer - that could have been a springboard to a real dynasty, instead it kicked off the Yankees who were dead in that series til the foul ball that Dye butchered which led to a hot Neagle leaving the game, then Cox taking out Bielecki who was on fire and putting in Wohlers who was usually lights for one inning but always struggled with the rare 2 inning save.

Aren't they now in sports purgatory being corporately owned but it seems like they have a sharp GM? I don't keep up that closely anymore, just a bandwagoner. Please correct me where I'm wrong.

Braves are owned now by Liberty Media. Basically the GM is given a cap and told to do what he wants with it. It’s a good and bad thing but it puts immense pressure on a GM and manager.

 

[BamaNation]

I heard Alex Anthopoulos - the GM - interviewed just after the bullpen trades they made and he says he has not been denied any deal he wanted to make even if it was over the budget. Of course that means he’s prefiltering opportunities before taking them to his boss.

The thing that has killed them is a long term local TV revenue deal that expires in 2027 and is one of worst deals in majors. It was renegotiated in 2013 so it is better than it was but still significantly below what current market would support.

With the new Suntrust Park Stadium rev opportunities and owning The Battery retail/dining around it - which is awesome by the way - they’re able to support better signings but are still mostly reliant on drafting and homegrown talent, which is their competitive advantage.




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[B1GTide]

Bobby Cox was a great manager. It took a few years for me to realize it, but he was great. As with all, he made mistakes, I guess the greatest was with Bielicki/Wohlers in 96 game 5 vs NYY, but overall he was a truly great manager. Just like football coaching, managing is much more than in-game strategy and moves. Managing people, having the respect of all around him, e.g., Gary Sheffield called him Mr. Cox, talent evaluation, etc. But his strategy was much better than some realize. Occasionally, he would overwork a closer and make other mistakes but he knew what he was doing.

I am strictly talking about the post season. His regular season strategy kept the team steady and put them in the playoffs year after year. But he treated the post season like the 162 game regular season, and said so every time he was asked about it. Result - 1-14 in the playoffs. In his career he took 15 teams to the playoffs (14 in Atlanta), and won only 1 title. He took 5 teams to the WS, with only 1 title.

So, one of the best ever at managing a team through the grind of a regular season, and one of the worst ever in the playoffs.

You are what your record says you are.

 

[BamaInBham]

I am strictly talking about the post season. His regular season strategy kept the team steady and put them in the playoffs year after year. But he treated the post season like the 162 game regular season, and said so every time he was asked about it. Result - 1-14 in the playoffs. In his career he took 15 teams to the playoffs (14 in Atlanta), and won only 1 title. He took 5 teams to the WS, with only 1 title.

So, one of the best ever at managing a team through the grind of a regular season, and one of the worst ever in the playoffs.

You are what your record says you are.

Well we disagree. IMO, his record says he was a great manager.

I know you know and probably agree with most of the following, so I'm not patronizing you to state these things but I just wanted to put them out there.

There is a great deal of luck involved with baseball and it is so very dependent on how a pitcher pitches that day. Those are among the reasons why the worst team in baseball can win a 3 game series from the best and few blink an eye. Just this year when the Braves were on an incredible streak of losing 2 of 30 series, one of the 2 teams to whom they lost was KC, a historically bad team, the other was a .500 Milwaukee team struggling at the time. For the most part they played the best teams in baseball.

You add in that in the post season you are playing the best teams while having to win 3 series and it makes it beyond difficult to win a post season. Much of the time the best team does not even win. Almost no one repeats anymore. Since the Braves started going to the playoffs under Cox in 1991, there have been 2 repeat winners. I give him more credit for making 5 WS. The Yankees have won 1 WS in the last 18 years, they've been to 1 WS in the last 15 years - this with all of their resources and willingness to use them. A lot of luck involved.

It's one of a few reasons I've lost interest in baseball, except when Atlanta is involved. When did Atlanta lose the WS with the best team (which would not be a disgrace - it happens all of the time for reasons to which we've already alluded)? The only real mistake I can remember Cox making was the lifting of Bielicki for Wohlers in 96. He took the "post season urgency" approach and brought in his closer an inning early. It's understandable but IMO was the wrong move. I'm sure he made more, they all do - everyone: Saban, Bryant, Stengel & McGraw, Meyer, Lombardi & Belichick, et al.

Bobby Cox created a wonderful, supportive environment for the players, while demanding that they respect the game and play it right. Gary Sheffield, who had sometimes been a malcontent, referred to him as Mr. Cox out of affection and respect. He was a very good, maybe great evaluator of talent. He was patient when budding stars hit bumps in the road. He never threw anyone under the bus. When the game was on the line he went for the jugular. He handled his pitching staff well, though IMO, he may have overworked a BP pitcher from time to time (Torre was the worst at that). A great manager.

Kirby Puckett's catch, Lonnie Smith getting lost on the base paths, Jermaine Dye hindered by the BP pitching mound, etc. Were those Cox's fault - should/could have been 2 more titles. All of those teams significantly flawed. Had one great post season pitcher.

 

[81usaf92]

1996 WS was the only time we lost as the Best team in the WS.

1992 and 1999 we played two of the best teams in the 90’s

1991 we played an even team that had WS experience.

I think we lost 2 NLCS where we were the better team

About 3 or 4 NLDS that we were the better team.

 

[B1GTide]

Bobby Cox was the Bobby Bowden of MLB. Absolutely amazing runs, but only one championship.

 

[81usaf92]

Bobby Cox was the Steve Spurrier of MLB. Absolutely amazing runs, but only one championship.

FIFY.

 

[B1GTide]

FIFY.

Fair enough - both had many teams good enough to win it all and only got it done once.

 

[CrimsonNagus]

I have no problem with the way the ‘90s played out. Would I love to have more than 1 WS championship, of course I would. The run of division championships was incredible and will probably never be match again.

Consider this, the Dodgers have won the last 7 West titles and they are only half way to the Braves streak. Pssst, the Dodgers haven’t won the WS yet either during this streak and only won the LCS twice so far. In the Braves first 7 years of their streak, they won 4 LCS and 1 WS.


Records the Braves currently hold:

-14 consecutive division titles, not just postseason appearances, 14 straight division titles. Next closest is the Yankees with 9 straight division titles (Yankees had 13 straight post season appearances.)

-8 consecutive LCS appearances. Next closest is the A’s with 5.


I love my ‘90s Braves. I’d rather be in the postseason every year than only a handful of times during that time. At least it gave them a shot.

 

[CrimsonNagus]

I got to be honest, after the game 1 loss I had lost all hope. It was a must win in my book, knowing who the Cards has on the mound for game 2. Plus, LDS game 1 winners go in the win the series 73% of the time. Don’t what the % is when the series is tied 1-1.

Game 2, was amazing and brought some life back into my hopes. What a performance by Folty! Flaherty was great as well but Folty was better. Now we have, arguably, our ace going in game 3. I like our chances to go up 2-1. Then hopefully end it in game 4. I really don’t want to see a game 5 and give Flaherty another shot.

Chop On!