Notre Dame is a product of media hype

selmaborntidefan

Hall of Fame
Re: Notre Dame is a product

I think the Yankees in 1996 were the Braves of 1992... a team destined for WS runs but missing that one piece. In 1998 they got it, but in 1996 they were an unfinished product. Point is that if that debacle in the 8th in game 4 doesn't happen, then there is noway they are beating Atlanta 3 straight when Atlanta can save Smotlz and Maddux for New York.
But that whole thing was stupid.

Blowing a 6-0 lead in game 4.

Losing game 5 on an error by the best CF in baseball and losing, 1-0.


Just stunning.


Think about this: if you had told me on October 22, 1996 that the Braves would not win another World Series GAME for at least 23 years, I'd have thought you were out of your mind. Keep in mind it was only 25 years from the franchise shift to the 1991 World Series.

That's how long it has been.
 

ALA2262

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Aug 4, 2007
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Re: Notre Dame is a product

Actually, he wasn't camped, he was still pursuing the ball and it landed behind any place where he "camped."




Camping isn't even the issue here (nor was he camped - he was retreating and never got under it).

What's funny is that your verbiage is precisely why Ron Darling was arguing in favor of the Braves.

The call is DEFENSIBLE in that it was the ump's judgment that the shortstop could have caught it with "routine" effort.
It was defensible in that it was a judgment call.

By the same token, the Braves' fans were downright embarrassing that day with the littering of the field, and the Braves lost because they made three errors, not because of the infield fly.
Very clear at 3:00 of this video that the shortstop had stopped retreating and was facing home plate (camped under the ball) when he gave way to the left fielder. Very clear also that the umpire did not give the infield fly out signal until that moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-6ujbLknUc
 

81usaf92

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Apr 26, 2008
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Re: Notre Dame is a product

But that whole thing was stupid.

Blowing a 6-0 lead in game 4.

Losing game 5 on an error by the best CF in baseball and losing, 1-0.


Just stunning.


Think about this: if you had told me on October 22, 1996 that the Braves would not win another World Series GAME for at least 23 years, I'd have thought you were out of your mind. Keep in mind it was only 25 years from the franchise shift to the 1991 World Series.

That's how long it has been.
Most Yankee fans I know say that they knew the better team didn't win in 1996, but they feel that it makes up for Joe Torre choking away 2001 and 2003 to teams that had no business winning. I think if you are honest, no team has choked more championships away in baseball than the New York Yankees, but their pockets tend to win more championships than anyone else. Atlanta is really only looked at within a period of about 15 years, wheras the Yankees are over 100. Its like saying Oklahoma from 2000-present are the biggest chokers, but how many times has Alabama choked away a championship in that time period as well. You see one is highlighted by only championship amongst many "chokes" and a lot of championships with a lot of chokes. I would argue most Atlanta and Oklahoma so called chokes are more of a team overperforming going against a better team than choking away a championship. Alabama and the Yankees can always point to their trophy case and say "What choke?".
 

81usaf92

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Re: Notre Dame is a product

Very clear at 3:00 of this video that the shortstop had stopped retreating and was facing home plate (camped under the ball) when he gave way to the left fielder. Very clear also that the umpire did not give the infield fly out signal until that moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-6ujbLknUc
The only thing that is clear is that an outfield umpire made a call he had no business making. Don't you find it kinda funny ONLY 1 umpire has his hand raised?
 

ALA2262

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Re: Notre Dame is a product

The only thing that is clear is that an outfield umpire made a call he had no business making. Don't you find it kinda funny ONLY 1 umpire has his hand raised?
Only thing!? :rolleye2: It's the only thing you wish to see. You nor I know whether he was or was not responsible for the call because neither you nor I know the mechanics of a six man umpiring crew. You keep saying he had no business making the call but you don't know that for a fact. He was the umpire closest to the play so I am inclined to believe he was responsible for the call.
 

81usaf92

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Re: Notre Dame is a product

Only thing!? :rolleye2: It's the only thing you wish to see..
Sure I would've loved to see them win, but its still not a great call at that point of the game. The guy never established position . You can go on and on at how you believe he was and did, but I doubt you have a vast majority of umpires willing to call that an ordinary effort or a clear position to the ball. So no it isn't a clear cut call, its a judgement at best. The only 100% right call in that whole chain of events by the umpires was sticking with the call on the field.
 
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BamaInBham

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Re: Notre Dame is a product

1996 was probably the only World Series choke the Braves actually have. Taking the 1st 2 games in New York, and having a total 8th inning collapse in Game 4 constitutes as a choke when you consider that was the best Braves team of all time playing against a Yankees team that possibly isn't in the top 10 Yankees team. Atlanta far and away was the better team. 1999 New York was, but 1996 Atlanta was. But the most painful world series is still 1991.

But I think people try their best to lump the Braves of the 90's in with Georgia, the Bills, and Peyton Manning led teams. But Atlanta choked fewer times than people really think
Great post.

Another thing is that they almost always had a serious weakness which was overlooked or ignored because of their great starting pitching and very good defense. Usually their offense or relief pitching or both were mediocre or barely good. They were never a complete team.

IMO, Bobby Cox was a great manager, though like everyone he made a few strategic or tactical errors. IMO, he made a bad judgment call when he took out Bielecki after the 7th in game 4 with Atlanta leading 6-3. Bielecki was blowing NY away having struck out 4 in 2 hitless innings. He was a spot starter and long reliever so had plenty left in the tank. Cox wanted to get to Wohlers who always struggled with 2 inning saves. Bielecki was throwing 95 (which at that time was like 98-100 now) at the time (my guess is that he was on PEDs that year since his fastball was previously ~90.) The Yankees couldn't touch him and Cox took him out. Of course Wohlers gave up the 3 spot his first inning but I still think it would have been different if Bielecki had gone another inning or even 2. (I know Wohlers threw 98-102 or so, but Bielecki had a bit of a funky motion that made his fastball more effective. More importantly, he was fearless while Wohlers was always a bit fragile. Unfortunately, subsequent history showed that to be true as MW never really recovered.)

Anyway, that changed the course of baseball history because it not only affected that year, but IMO, years to come.