OC and DC replacement discussion

KrAzY3

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I've not watched UGA enough to know but is Kirby still running Saban's D or has he modified it over the years? I suspect it's the latter, meaning the basic D might be similar, but the tweaks have made it more effective.

BowlCut is obviously a great defensive mind, so there's little chance (in my mind) that Kirby hasn't modified the D considerably. The Venn diagram of the two defenses would certainly have a ton of overlap but the parts that differ may be considerable.

Not suggesting this isn't a Gol*ing issue, in fact, I think the progression Bama lacks wrt stopping modern defenses is due to Gol*ing. Offenses have changed a lot since BowlCut left for UGA.
Your point gets into why I think Golding is such an issue. Saban needs someone that can utilize his defense properly and obviously that includes making necessary adjustments. Kirby did that at Alabama, Pruitt did that at Alabama, Golding can't do that at Alabama. It isn't necessarily whether or not Golding can run a good defense, ironically the highest ranked defense he's ever had was at another school.

He needs to be able to manage this scheme though, and it is the most successful defensive scheme in college football for the past 20 years by a long margin.

To elaborate a bit more on Kirby, I looked at the people he's had running his defense at Georgia (four in total). Not only have all out performed Golding, but every single one worked under Saban! Every single one! In one case I believe just as a student assistant and graduate assistant, but Kirby clearly is choosing based on this criteria. This is not just about people who worked with Kirby either, as those stepped into the role in total actually spent more time with Saban.

In terms of Golding, I would refer back to a concern I had when he first got the job. He had 0 Power 5 experience. None. Didn't go to college at a Power 5 school, didn't work for one in any capacity, so this was a huge leap up. By contrast everyone Kirby has hired not only had Power 5 experience but he specifically had experience with Saban's scheme. So if you want to consider where it went wrong, the idea that Golding is just out of his depth doesn't seem far fetched.

If Golding had spent 2 or 3 years under Saban, and had another person like Pruitt or Smart (he instead got Tosh) to steer him in the right direction it is plausible that he realize the potential he has. But it seems Saban has enough other problems that he can't fix what's wrong with Golding. Unfortunately I don't see Golding giving up play calling, or essentially being demoted to co-DC but that's the only way I see this being resolved with Golding still around.

In a way it's like the Jalen Hurts situation, where Hurts was thrust into a situation he hadn't been properly prepared to handle. I don't think what is wrong with Golding can be fixed with him continuing his role. He'd have to take a step back before he can move forward.
 
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CoachJeff

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Regarding UGA vs Bama's D. They run the "same defense" in a lot of ways, but in reality they don't do a lot of the same stuff. Some of that is due to personnel, some is due to playcalling (which may hindered/helped by personnel).

Here are some examples.

Bama vs. UT . It's 1st and 10. Bama has 2 defensive linemen in the game, plus Will Anderson lined up as defensive end to rush. Bama has 2 linebackers (not counting Anderson who isn't being used as an LB) and 6 DBs (i.e. a dime package). They are set up to defend the pass even though it's 1st and 10 and they could easily run it.

Tennessee is in shotgun with a RB next to the QB and 4 WRs split out wide.

Bama has Kool Aid on the line against a WR and Hellams 10 yards back on their best WR Hyatt.

Bama UT.png

When the ball is snapped Bama rushes 3 and drops 8 into coverage. The Vols run a play action pass that the LBs don't really bite on. There is no pressure on Hooker because they have 5 guys blocking the 3 rushers. Hooker waits for Hyatt to get open and then throws a rainbow to a wide open receiver for a TD. Snap to release is 3.1 seconds.


Same sort of situation for UGA vs UT in their game.

UT lines up in almost exactly the same formation as the play above. It's 3rd and 6. It's a passing down.


Uga UT.png

UGA, though, has a different defensive call. They have 3 actual defensive linemen in the game (300lb Jalen Carter, 320lb Nazir Stackhouse, and 265lb Mykel Williams) and a linebacker (250lb Chaz Chambliss) and then one LB spying the QB and dropping 6 into coverage. The result of the play is a sack/fumble/shouldabeenasafety. Contact between the defense and Hooker? Exactly 3.1 seconds


So why did the same play for Tennessee end in a TD vs Bama and end in disaster vs. UGA?

UGA has better defensive linemen and they pressured the QB better by taking advantage of better linemen but ALSO bringing more pressure. Bama had 8 in coverage and gave up a long TD while UGA only had 6 in coverage and got a sack.
 

The Ols

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Regarding UGA vs Bama's D. They run the "same defense" in a lot of ways, but in reality they don't do a lot of the same stuff. Some of that is due to personnel, some is due to playcalling (which may hindered/helped by personnel).

Here are some examples.

Bama vs. UT . It's 1st and 10. Bama has 2 defensive linemen in the game, plus Will Anderson lined up as defensive end to rush. Bama has 2 linebackers (not counting Anderson who isn't being used as an LB) and 6 DBs (i.e. a dime package). They are set up to defend the pass even though it's 1st and 10 and they could easily run it.

Tennessee is in shotgun with a RB next to the QB and 4 WRs split out wide.

Bama has Kool Aid on the line against a WR and Hellams 10 yards back on their best WR Hyatt.

View attachment 30394

When the ball is snapped Bama rushes 3 and drops 8 into coverage. The Vols run a play action pass that the LBs don't really bite on. There is no pressure on Hooker because they have 5 guys blocking the 3 rushers. Hooker waits for Hyatt to get open and then throws a rainbow to a wide open receiver for a TD. Snap to release is 3.1 seconds.


Same sort of situation for UGA vs UT in their game.

UT lines up in almost exactly the same formation as the play above. It's 3rd and 6. It's a passing down.


View attachment 30397

UGA, though, has a different defensive call. They have 3 actual defensive linemen in the game (300lb Jalen Carter, 320lb Nazir Stackhouse, and 265lb Mykel Williams) and a linebacker (250lb Chaz Chambliss) and then one LB spying the QB and dropping 6 into coverage. The result of the play is a sack/fumble/shouldabeenasafety. Contact between the defense and Hooker? Exactly 3.1 seconds


So why did the same play for Tennessee end in a TD vs Bama and end in disaster vs. UGA?

UGA has better defensive linemen and they pressured the QB better by taking advantage of better linemen but ALSO bringing more pressure. Bama had 8 in coverage and gave up a long TD while UGA only had 6 in coverage and got a sack.
Because one was 1st and 10 and one was 3rd and 6?
 
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Saban4Ever

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I think an incident with Golding happened over the weekend that may finally cause Coach Saban to let Golding go and get another DC. I've been reading about it on SEC Rant from an insider. I'm not a member of that site so I can't post, but I look at it often. This person who posted was at the bar where it happened.

I hope Golding gets the help he needs if true. Supposedly he was bad mouthing Saban and the NIL at Bama. I am ready to see him go. I am sure Coach will try to help him and also help him find another job, which is good. I wonder who Coach will get as DC. Whoever it is, just simplify the defense and let the boys play like UGA does!
 

KrAzY3

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Supposedly he was bad mouthing Saban and the NIL at Bama.
I won't comment further, because I don't want to bad mouth someone based entirely on a rumor...

But if Golding is actually running his mouth now, it might be that he sees the writing on the wall, or that it explicitly has been delivered to him. One can hope... his defense has ruined a title chance.
 

tusks_n_raider

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I won't comment further, because I don't want to bad mouth someone based entirely on a rumor...

But if Golding is actually running his mouth now, it might be that he sees the writing on the wall, or that it explicitly has been delivered to him. One can hope... his defense has ruined a title chance.
It's not just that either.

Allegedly when a Zebra goes a guzzling at the local watering hole it doesn't change it's stripes when it leaves.

If true... He Gone.
 

bamadws56

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I think an incident with Golding happened over the weekend that may finally cause Coach Saban to let Golding go and get another DC. I've been reading about it on SEC Rant from an insider. I'm not a member of that site so I can't post, but I look at it often. This person who posted was at the bar where it happened.

I hope Golding gets the help he needs if true. Supposedly he was bad mouthing Saban and the NIL at Bama. I am ready to see him go. I am sure Coach will try to help him and also help him find another job, which is good. I wonder who Coach will get as DC. Whoever it is, just simplify the defense and let the boys play like UGA does!
Have any of the mods or insiders heard about this and can confirm or deny the rumor? Lord let it be true! Best Christmas present in many years.
 
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AlexanderFan

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I've not watched UGA enough to know but is Kirby still running Saban's D or has he modified it over the years? I suspect it's the latter, meaning the basic D might be similar, but the tweaks have made it more effective.

BowlCut is obviously a great defensive mind, so there's little chance (in my mind) that Kirby hasn't modified the D considerably. The Venn diagram of the two defenses would certainly have a ton of overlap but the parts that differ may be considerable.

Not suggesting this isn't a Gol*ing issue, in fact, I think the progression Bama lacks wrt stopping modern defenses is due to Gol*ing. Offenses have changed a lot since BowlCut left for UGA.
Kirby’s safeties aren’t liabilities in pass coverage. They are hawks who will support the run. Kirby has kept the large nose type in his recruiting so that his linebackers don’t run into guards and centers on their blitzes.

I’m not sure that there’s much difference in the overall scheme, other than he doesn’t put two linemen on the field against a run heavy offense.
 

Bamabuzzard

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Kirby’s safeties aren’t liabilities in pass coverage. They are hawks who will support the run. Kirby has kept the large nose type in his recruiting so that his linebackers don’t run into guards and centers on their blitzes.

I’m not sure that there’s much difference in the overall scheme, other than he doesn’t put two linemen on the field against a run heavy offense.
Their secondary players also PLAY THE BALL and not the wr, so they are more in a position to make interceptions and somehow not lose ground aka creating space between them and the wr.
 

gtgilbert

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Rewatched and paused the Auburn game. Don't understand the defensive fronts we
were in. We continually had ho one over the TE or Tight slot allowing us to get out flanked
by a run team. Almost like pulling calls out of a hat. We often get pulled out of position
due to over adjusting to motion plus this defense is very complicated. The best thing
CNS could do is hire a quality DC and let him bring in his own system. At this time this program could uses one change to shake everyone up. Things seem stagnant.
Rewatching Auburn again. One problem we have is we recruit outside linbacker types
like Turner and Anderson. They are great when we are in our 3-4 defense cause
matched up more vs TE's. We have been running a lot of 4-2-5 where they are undersized
at DE and then we roll down a smallish DB over the TE. Play one defense or the other
and recruit those types of players. Some of the alignments up front make no sense.
Continually outnumbered on the edges.
Few thoughts:
  1. We haven't really used the 3-4 as the base defense for a long, long time now. Some version of a nickel package has been played in well over 65% of our snaps each season since at least 2015 (probably before, but I started tracking in 15). Dime is the next most used package - again with multiple types of groupings. the 3-4 only gets played in rare occasions now because even run centric teams like Auburn and Ole Miss keep 3WRs in the game and spread the field so they can keep that extra defender out of the box
  2. Over the years we've had 3 different types of groupings for nickel - the way to look at it is based on type of players instead of where they line up - i.e. how many DLs versus how many LBs, even if the LBs are on the line with a hand in the dirt. This means we have had two groupings leveraging a 3-3, and one with a 2-4. From an alignment standpoint, each can look like either a 4 man line or a 3 man line.
    1. In one version of the 3-3, we'd go pretty heavy with the DL being all big bodied type guys. We'd have one OLB, most often lined up on the LOS - sometimes hand in the dirt, sometimes not and occasionally off the LOS
    2. Up till the last few years we also had a couple of 'tweaner' DL we'd use in a 'light' 3-3 with 2 bigger bodied guys, and one tweaner who was a bit smaller than our normal DL types, but still much bigger than an OLB. Same role for the OLB as the other grouping. We don't really leverage this as much as we used to.
    3. The 2-4, which started out as a not often used grouping called 'rabbits', but over the last 3 years became one of the top 2 groupings we used. 2 traditional DL, 2OLBs and 2 ILBs. OLBs might be in a 2 point or a 3 point and every once and a while one will play off the LOS.
  3. so none of these groupings are really new, but to your point, the way some of the positions are aligning and their responsibilities changed significantly, really starting in 2020 but to an extreme this season. Prior to this shift, we'd would typically have the edge guys, whether it was a DL or LB, lined up no worse than heads up on either the OT or TE so they could maintain leverage on the edge. There were some rare times based on the offenses formation that we might shift in a bit and a DB would have the edge - mostly if there were no receivers to that side, but again, rare. Now for some reason, we are very often lining up the edge player to the inside shoulder of the OT or TE and and sometimes it appears that they have the inside gap 100% based on their first steps. It seems the expectation is that the ILB will scrape over, or the S will come down to set the edge or make the play, but it's not working as well as it should. If we were only doing this with the DL type, it might make some sense, but putting a guy like Anderson or Turner on the OTs inside shoulder is just a waste in my opinion since their advantage is going to be speed and quickness versus power.
 

B1GTide

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Few thoughts:
  1. We haven't really used the 3-4 as the base defense for a long, long time now. Some version of a nickel package has been played in well over 65% of our snaps each season since at least 2015 (probably before, but I started tracking in 15). Dime is the next most used package - again with multiple types of groupings. the 3-4 only gets played in rare occasions now because even run centric teams like Auburn and Ole Miss keep 3WRs in the game and spread the field so they can keep that extra defender out of the box
  2. Over the years we've had 3 different types of groupings for nickel - the way to look at it is based on type of players instead of where they line up - i.e. how many DLs versus how many LBs, even if the LBs are on the line with a hand in the dirt. This means we have had two groupings leveraging a 3-3, and one with a 2-4. From an alignment standpoint, each can look like either a 4 man line or a 3 man line.
    1. In one version of the 3-3, we'd go pretty heavy with the DL being all big bodied type guys. We'd have one OLB, most often lined up on the LOS - sometimes hand in the dirt, sometimes not and occasionally off the LOS
    2. Up till the last few years we also had a couple of 'tweaner' DL we'd use in a 'light' 3-3 with 2 bigger bodied guys, and one tweaner who was a bit smaller than our normal DL types, but still much bigger than an OLB. Same role for the OLB as the other grouping. We don't really leverage this as much as we used to.
    3. The 2-4, which started out as a not often used grouping called 'rabbits', but over the last 3 years became one of the top 2 groupings we used. 2 traditional DL, 2OLBs and 2 ILBs. OLBs might be in a 2 point or a 3 point and every once and a while one will play off the LOS.
  3. so none of these groupings are really new, but to your point, the way some of the positions are aligning and their responsibilities changed significantly, really starting in 2020 but to an extreme this season. Prior to this shift, we'd would typically have the edge guys, whether it was a DL or LB, lined up no worse than heads up on either the OT or TE so they could maintain leverage on the edge. There were some rare times based on the offenses formation that we might shift in a bit and a DB would have the edge - mostly if there were no receivers to that side, but again, rare. Now for some reason, we are very often lining up the edge player to the inside shoulder of the OT or TE and and sometimes it appears that they have the inside gap 100% based on their first steps. It seems the expectation is that the ILB will scrape over, or the S will come down to set the edge or make the play, but it's not working as well as it should. If we were only doing this with the DL type, it might make some sense, but putting a guy like Anderson or Turner on the OTs inside shoulder is just a waste in my opinion since their advantage is going to be speed and quickness versus power.
This year, no matter where you lined up the edge guys, they attacked the QB very aggressively. Given their speed and athleticism, they totally played themselves out of any chance of containing the edge. Alabama had zero edge discipline this year, and very little last year.

IMO, the attempt to use very different cats in Anderson and Turner wrecked the defense instead of making it better. Offenses simply attacked where they would be lined up, knowing that there would be a hole there less than one second after the snap of the ball without needing to commit a blocker to that spot to make it happen.
 

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