Space Command Headquarters to Huntsville

[JDCrimson]

Just offer abortion services on the bases and be done with it.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Just offer abortion services on the bases and be done with it.

I haven't examined the new law in detail yet, but I'd fear that it wouldn't bar state prosecution...

 

[81usaf92]

I haven't examined the new law in detail yet, but I'd fear that it wouldn't bar state prosecution...

From what I recall, everything on an installation and it’s off base facilities fall under exclusive jurisdiction and everything touching is proprietary jurisdiction. I don’t know if that allows a base to totally ignore a state law or not.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

From what I recall, everything on an installation and it’s off base facilities fall under exclusive jurisdiction and everything touching is proprietary jurisdiction. I don’t know if that allows a base to totally ignore a state law or not.

You don't understand. The fact that an act is allowable on a federal reservation does not automatically mean that, once the individual leaves the reservation, the individual cannot be found to have committed a violation of state law. IDK how the Alabama statute reads yet, but other states have added an "aiding and abetting" provision. I wouldn't want to be the person testing that conflict of laws. It's not a clear example of federal law supremacy. There is no such rule that any act committed on a federal reservation is automatically sanctioned and cannot be prosecuted if a violation of state law that I know of. It's not my field and I'll be happy to yield to other attorneys more acquainted with the area.

I applauded the application of federal pressure in favor of integration I delineated above. That was to bring Huntsville into line with Brown v. Board. In this case, it's the exact opposite. The Supreme Court ruled in the Dobbs case that there is no federal constitutional right to abortion. IOW, the executive branch is applying pressure in favor of a policy (which I happen to agree with) which is in opposition to a Supreme Court decision. The initial decision to move the command here and the review, which basically started from ground zero, both showed that there were savings amounting to billions over time, both to the government and to servicemen and civilian employees. Colorado Springs' case is basically "squatters' rights" for being the temporary HQ and politics. It's a swing state which Biden needs. This decision will play well in New York and Mass. It may not play so well in NOVA. AFAIC, I'll give a big yawn, if it stays in COS. We're having enough difficulty digesting our present growth...

 

[PaulD]

From what I recall, everything on an installation and it’s off base facilities fall under exclusive jurisdiction and everything touching is proprietary jurisdiction. I don’t know if that allows a base to totally ignore a state law or not.

Actually, it depends on the base (and sometimes, different parts of a base).

Many (most?) bases are under exclusive jurisdiction. As I recall from my time there, MANY years ago, Maxwell AFB is an exclusive jurisdiction base. On such a base, the Federal government is sovereign and the state is not, except to the extent that Congress authorizes it. State laws generally don't apply.

Some bases are concurrent jurisdiction. One of my bases, Altus AFB in Oklahoma was one such. Both are sovereign and both can punish crimes committed there.

A small number of places are proprietary jurisdiction, where the Federal government is merely a landowner. In 1979, there was an off-base housing annex of Maxwell (I think it is gone) that fell in this category.

I don't know which Redstone falls under.

The other thing to watch out for is the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution. A state may not interfere with the actions of the Federal government, except where Congress has authorized it. For example, I believe the Clean Air Act lets the states address Federal government emissions. (If I'm wrong, be gentle: I learned this decades ago and haven't been using it.)

 

[PaulD]

You don't understand. The fact that an act is allowable on a federal reservation does not automatically mean that, once the individual leaves the reservation, the individual cannot be found to have committed a violation of state law. IDK how the Alabama statute reads yet, but other states have added an "aiding and abetting" provision. I wouldn't want to be the person testing that conflict of laws. It's not a clear example of federal law supremacy. There is no such rule that any act committed on a federal reservation is automatically sanctioned and cannot be prosecuted if a violation of state law that I know of. It's not my field and I'll be happy to yield to other attorneys more acquainted with the area.

I applauded the application of federal pressure in favor of integration I delineated above. That was to bring Huntsville into line with Brown v. Board. In this case, it's the exact opposite. The Supreme Court ruled in the Dobbs case that there is no federal constitutional right to abortion. IOW, the executive branch is applying pressure in favor of a policy (which I happen to agree with) which is in opposition to a Supreme Court decision. The initial decision to move the command here and the review, which basically started from ground zero, both showed that there were savings amounting to billions over time, both to the government and to servicemen and civilian employees. Colorado Springs' case is basically "squatters' rights" for being the temporary HQ and politics. It's a swing state which Biden needs. This decision will play well in New York and Mass. It may not play so well in NOVA. AFAIC, I'll give a big yawn, if it stays in COS. We're having enough difficulty digesting our present growth...

If Redstone is an exclusive jurisdiction base (it likely but not definitely is), then there's a strong argument that the Alabama legislature has no more power to regulate abortions there then those in Georgia. There is an old case from California I believe that says that a state can't prosecute a Federal official who is carrying out their job. (I think it was a US marshal.)

However, Federal law (the Hyde Amendment) doesn't allow the DoD to pay for abortions except to preserve the health of the mother and, possibly rape or incest (I haven't checked). Tuberville is saying that when DoD facilitates a service member to travel to a place where abortion is legal that is at least an implicit violation of that law. I treat anything he says with a rebuttable presumption of error.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Actually, it depends on the base (and sometimes, different parts of a base).

Many (most?) bases are under exclusive jurisdiction. As I recall from my time there, MANY years ago, Maxwell AFB is an exclusive jurisdiction base. On such a base, the Federal government is sovereign and the state is not, except to the extent that Congress authorizes it. State laws generally don't apply.

Some bases are concurrent jurisdiction. One of my bases, Altus AFB in Oklahoma was one such. Both are sovereign and both can punish crimes committed there.

A small number of places are proprietary jurisdiction, where the Federal government is merely a landowner. In 1979, there was an off-base housing annex of Maxwell (I think it is gone) that fell in this category.

I don't know which Redstone falls under.

The other thing to watch out for is the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution. A state may not interfere with the actions of the Federal government, except where Congress has authorized it. For example, I believe the Clean Air Act lets the states address Federal government emissions. (If I'm wrong, be gentle: I learned this decades ago and haven't been using it.)

Thanks, Paul. Fox hospital here on Redstone has shrunk and shrunk over the years until most eligible people are served outside under Tricare. I'm certain that the government is not going to set up an abortion clinic there to allow the Space Command to be moved here. Let me emphasize that I think the abortion issue is strictly an excuse to overturn two well-studied decisions. The White House wants it in CO for very obvious reasons...

 

[PaulD]

Thanks, Paul. Fox hospital here on Redstone has shrunk and shrunk over the years until most eligible people are served outside under Tricare. I'm certain that the government is not going to set up an abortion clinic there to allow the Space Command to be moved here. Let me emphasize that I think the abortion issue is strictly an excuse to overturn two well-studied decisions. The White House wants it in CO for very obvious reasons...

There is actually a valid non-political one. As I know from experience, moving military organizations across the country does cause significant disruption. For one thing, civilian employees may decline to move and their expertise is lost. I did choose to move in 1999 from Texas to Georgia when the San Antonio Air Logistics Center's missions were realigned, mostly to Oklahoma and Georgia. I have seen it expressed that this consideration is one the mind of the decision makers.

 

[Crimson1967]

Could an abortion clinic be opened next door to one of the casinos that are on tribal land?

 

[TIDE-HSV]

There is actually a valid non-political one. As I know from experience, moving military organizations across the country does cause significant disruption. For one thing, civilian employees may decline to move and their expertise is lost. I did choose to move in 1999 from Texas to Georgia when the San Antonio Air Logistics Center's missions were realigned, mostly to Oklahoma and Georgia. I have seen it expressed that this consideration is one the mind of the decision makers.

They took those factors into account in the initial two decisions. We've gained from two BRAC rounds, the first from St. Louis and the second from DC when they moved the Army Materiel Command here. Those holes took a couple of years to fill but they were eventually filled...

 

[81usaf92]

There is actually a valid non-political one. As I know from experience, moving military organizations across the country does cause significant disruption. For one thing, civilian employees may decline to move and their expertise is lost. I did choose to move in 1999 from Texas to Georgia when the San Antonio Air Logistics Center's missions were realigned, mostly to Oklahoma and Georgia. I have seen it expressed that this consideration is one the mind of the decision makers.

When I was in there was some Academy guy as chief of staff of the ** that floated around the idea that Stratcom should be moved to Colorado Springs. Granted we are talking about moving from bordering states, but the logistics of moving were instantly thrown back at him and the plan was killed instantly. It’s reason #1 there is no danger of AETC from ever leaving the south.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

When I was in there was some Academy guy as chief of staff of the ** that floated around the idea that Stratcom should be moved to Colorado Springs. Granted we are talking about moving from bordering states, but the logistics of moving were instantly thrown back at him and the plan was killed instantly. It’s reason #1 there is no danger of AETC from ever leaving the south.

As I said above, the logistics of moving were taken into account and were overbalanced by the long-term savings. The number of jobs involved is much smaller than the previous moves. It's even smaller than the FBI HQ set up here. And, as I posted above, we've had no problems attracting people, particularly military people, to HSV. You can't throw a rock around here without hitting a military retiree...

 

[PaulD]

As I said above, the logistics of moving were taken into account and were overbalances by the long-term savings. The number of jobs involved is much smaller than the previous moves. It's even smaller than the FBI HQ set up here. And, as I posted above, we've had no problems attracting people, particularly military people, to HSV. You can't throw a rock around here without hitting a military retiree...

Another issue which should have been addressed (it may have; I don't know) is whether new facilities are needed at a new location. The BRAC process, which doesn't apply here, required factoring in whether new facilities must be built and how much they would cost. Presumably something would be needed in Alabama, but something might still be needed in Colorado.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Another issue which should have been addressed (it may have; I don't know) is whether new facilities are needed at a new location. The BRAC process, which doesn't apply here, required factoring in whether new facilities must be built and how much they would cost. Presumably something would be needed in Alabama, but something might still be needed in Colorado.

Well. two independent studies from the Department of Defense Inspector General and the Government Accountability Office backed the process that ranked Huntsville as the best choice for the Space Command. Colorado Springs didn’t even make the top three choices...

 

[Bazza]

For personal reasons (I grew up there), I would have preferred Patrick SFB on the coast of Florida just south of Cape Canaveral. ---snip---

Used to drive down there to surf. "Picnic Tables" was a very popular spot, for one.

Went to the base commissary a few times when we first moved to Florida. Bought a 22 rifle there, in fact, that I still have.

Did you surf while growing up there, @PaulD ?

Very strong surf culture there - legendary in fact!

 

[PaulD]

Used to drive down there to surf. "Picnic Tables" was a very popular spot, for one.

Went to the base commissary a few times when we first moved to Florida. Bought a 22 rifle there, in fact, that I still have.

Did you surf while growing up there, @PaulD ?

Very strong surf culture there - legendary in fact!

Never did try that; I was a bit young as we moved away to Houston when I was 12. Did spend a lot of time in the sun on the beach and at the Officers' Club pool for which I now pay with procedures at the dermatologist to freeze off cells and remove a carcinoma last year.

 

[Bazza]

Never did try that; I was a bit young as we moved away to Houston when I was 12. Did spend a lot of time in the sun on the beach and at the Officers' Club pool for which I now pay with procedures at the dermatologist to freeze off cells and remove a carcinoma last year.

Yeah, I hear ya on the sun damage. Fortunately I have the kind of skin tone that accepts sun fairly good, although trust me, I have plenty of signs of being outside so much.

These dermatologists though - they can do amazing things these days - so glad you are getting that taken care of!

When we re-located to Florida from Norfolk, I was 16. The warmer water and passionate surf culture here really motivated me to spend more time in the water.