The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

bama_wayne1

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the ar-15 is basically the civilian version of the m16/m4.
I agree, but they are just a semi auto rifle. The real significance of the AR platform is the ability to add accessories. For instance you can have peep sights and a scope and a laser sight at the same time. A standard 30 caliber deer gun has the equivalent power and looks nothing like a military weapon. I don't believe in committing acts of violence but shotguns in close quarter have a better chance of doing damage. That's why when special ops are on patrol they generally carry a rifle, shotgun and a pistol or two.
 

crimsonaudio

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the ar-15 is basically the civilian version of the m16/m4.
Well, to be fair, the AR has gotten a lot of attention lately (due to so many mass murderers choosing them), but the reality is far more people are killed annually with pistols than with rifles.

I'm NOT saying this as if there's not terrible consequences to this mass shooting - its HORRIBLE and my heart breaks for the families - but in the grand scheme of things, this mass shooting doesn't matter. It's literally a tiny blip on the stat sheet of gun violence in the US. And very, very few of the gun deaths in the US come from anything other than pistols.

This is why I say if you want to change things, we need to really address the fundamental issues. I can almost guarantee someone will promote a poorly named 'assault weapons ban' in congress after this - it always happens - but no one seems to care that these rifles aren't the root issue. Why is the US so violent? Something is different here, and it's not just the number of guns.

I'm not suggesting that some sort of modification of federal gun laws won't help, but it rings hollow when the US averages twice as many people killed every day in the US (36.4 deaths/day, excluding suicide). These mass shootings are horrible, but account for a tiny fraction of those killed annually in the US. Something is broken, and I want to know what it is - and it's not just gun laws....
 

CharminTide

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I agree, but they are just a semi auto rifle. The real significance of the AR platform is the ability to add accessories. For instance you can have peep sights and a scope and a laser sight at the same time. A standard 30 caliber deer gun has the equivalent power and looks nothing like a military weapon. I don't believe in committing acts of violence but shotguns in close quarter have a better chance of doing damage. That's why when special ops are on patrol they generally carry a rifle, shotgun and a pistol or two.
This is the main reason I posted how Australia stratified their firearm licenses. Theirs was a pretty simple system to understand, but also detailed enough to avoid the nebulous "military style weapon" designation.
 

crimsonaudio

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correct, these continued shootings are just a price we pay.
Yup. If people really want an AUS type result, then they need to propose a Constitutional Amendment.

I think we can figure out another solution, personally, but it will mean addressing some root problems that will require both sides of the argument to face some uncomfortable truths.
 

CrimsonNagus

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Everyone saying that there are no solutions or stricter gun laws will not work, please prove it.

Fact is, the US has more mass shootings then any other country. The US owns more guns per capita then any other country. The US makes up about 5% of the world population but, Americans own about 48% of civilian-owned guns in the world. There has already been 18 school shootings in 2018. No other civilized country has this problem and they all have stricter gun laws. So, those of you saying better laws will not work... prove it! There are plenty of examples worldwide where stricter gun controls has worked but, people here continue to deny its effectiveness. So prove to me it will not work.

We have to do something. 18 school shootings in 45 days but, let's not doing anything because there are no solutions. Continually doing the same thing and expecting different results is called stupidity. This country is being stupid about gun control and it is time for a change. Nothing will happen though, because this country cares more about their right to guns than stopping mass shootings.

I know some are going to blast my comments but, this is how I feel. I'm sick and tired of the gun culture in this country. I'm sick and tired of seeing these shootings in the news. I'm sick and tired of a government that only offers prayers and condolences but, refuses to even bring serious discussion to the table.

I'm not against gun ownership, I just want stricter laws. The Australian laws look like a great starting point IMO. How many innocent lives is our gun freedom worth?
 
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crimsonaudio

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Everyone saying that there are no solutions or stricter gun laws will not work, please prove it.

Fact is, the US has more mass shootings then any other country. The US owns more guns per capita then any other country. The US makes up about 5% of the world population but, Americans own about 48% of civilian-owned guns in the world. There has already been 18 school shootings in 2018. No other civilized country has this problem and they all have stricter gun laws. So, those of you saying better laws will not work... prove it! There are plenty of examples worldwide where stricter gun controls has worked but, people here continue to deny its effectiveness. So prove to me it will not work.

We have to do something. 18 school shootings in 45 days but, let's not doing anything because there are no solutions. Continually doing the same thing and expecting different results is called stupidity. This country is being stupid about gun control and it is time for a change. Nothing will happen though, because this country cares more about their right to guns than stopping mass shootings.
I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who isn't sick of the violence.

I think we all know the answer is multifaceted, but the 'gun law' solution is particularly tough - so I'll ask you, what laws do you propose we pass that will help curb the violence while not getting immediately struck down by the courts? I've said it over and over, the AUS solution is simply impossible here without a Constitutional Amendment, so what do you propose?

This isn't directed at you, but I get so tired of people acting as if we gun owners don't care or don't want to see this problem addressed. We're called names and attacked across the internet as being selfish, heartless, evil - yet when pressed, the solutions that are given are almost always "uhh, I dunno, it worked in Australia..."
 

TIDE-HSV

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Possibly, I simply thought about the incredible number of firearm owners I know and couldn't think of a single one who has fantasies about a breakdown in society or a hero complex.


I guess that all depends on who kicks in your front door. If three or four armed people broke into your home, I'm betting you'd understand why some feel the need for high capacity magazines.

Further, if I may, let me add that unless / until everyone realizes that comments like 'high powered military grade arms' are emotional and quite silly in the context of what's available, we'll get nowhere. It's the same thing as those who constantly criticize Trump / Obama / whoever is in the WH - at some point, if you cannot speak in factual and unemotional terms when discussing a topic, you're only going to reach people who already agree with you.

Let me finish with this - I'm not unwilling to discuss magazine limitations, etc. I think they're pointless, but again, they may work - I cannot see what the future holds. But I'm only willing to discuss these sorts of compromises if both sides are willing to dial down the rhetoric and speak in facts.

Ultimately, we can point fingers all day, but those who wish to solve this problem via gun control laws need to explain exactly what they think needs to be done and how it will work in the real world. Working around 2A and the subsequent SCOTUS rulings makes that tough.
This is one of my fears and it's largely media-driven. I'd bet 95% of the public now believes there is something unique and deadly about an AR-15, which is basically just a .224 (or similar) semi-automatic rifle. There is one exception but it's critical - the AR-15 and similar rifles will accept large magazines. We limited mags once and it worked to some degree. It's not perfect, because mags can be exchanged quickly. There wasn't the political will even to keep that limitation in place. The technology-based assault weapon ban, which also depended on cosmetics, was largely ineffective. The reversing a year ago of the inclusion of mentally ill in the data base was a huge step backwards...
 

crimsonaudio

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The reversing a year ago of the inclusion of mentally ill in the data base was a huge step backwards...
But that's not actually what happened - there were lots of people against that law, not just gun-rights advocates. Not that I expect the media to accurately portray it when they have the chance to print an incendiary headline instead...

https://www.snopes.com/congress-gun-legal-mental/
 

bama_wayne1

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This is one of my fears and it's largely media-driven. I'd bet 95% of the public now believes there is something unique and deadly about an AR-15, which is basically just a .224 (or similar) semi-automatic rifle. There is one exception but it's critical - the AR-15 and similar rifles will accept large magazines. We limited mags once and it worked to some degree. It's not perfect, because mags can be exchanged quickly. There wasn't the political will even to keep that limitation in place. The technology-based assault weapon ban, which also depended on cosmetics, was largely ineffective. The reversing a year ago of the inclusion of mentally ill in the data base was a huge step backwards...
I don't believe there will be any change unless and until this country can pass an amendment to the constitution. Since we can't get our congress to agree on anything that will probably never happen.
 

TIDE-HSV

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But that's not actually what happened - there were lots of people against that law, not just gun-rights advocates. Not that I expect the media to accurately portray it when they have the chance to print an incendiary headline instead...

https://www.snopes.com/congress-gun-legal-mental/
I'd already read that. I still think it was a step backwards and others along the same lines have been proposed. They've been pulled back because of the negative attention that move drew...
 

TIDE-HSV

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Its the image that it represents. Even if it has completely identical capabilities as a 'normal' looking rifle it would still attract the nuts because of the way it looks. Nuts feel more empowered with it.
So, you think that, if you take the cosmetics away, this type of shooter will just say "Aw shucks," and give up?
 

92tide

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A bit of a stretch to try to include him in the right fringe...
but when you present the idea to folks that guns are a guard against governmental tyranny, you can't assume that only like minded folks will agree with you about what constitutes tyranny. hell, there were folks on this board swearing up and down that we were the victims of tyranny because they had to sign up for healthcare.
 

92tide

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I agree, but they are just a semi auto rifle. The real significance of the AR platform is the ability to add accessories. For instance you can have peep sights and a scope and a laser sight at the same time. A standard 30 caliber deer gun has the equivalent power and looks nothing like a military weapon. I don't believe in committing acts of violence but shotguns in close quarter have a better chance of doing damage. That's why when special ops are on patrol they generally carry a rifle, shotgun and a pistol or two.
and that is my point. guns and accessories are now being marketed as allowing you to be just like the special ops patrols. you too can be a tactical warrior bad arse. we see a similar mindset in the militarization of our police as well.
 
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92tide

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Well, to be fair, the AR has gotten a lot of attention lately (due to so many mass murderers choosing them), but the reality is far more people are killed annually with pistols than with rifles.

I'm NOT saying this as if there's not terrible consequences to this mass shooting - its HORRIBLE and my heart breaks for the families - but in the grand scheme of things, this mass shooting doesn't matter. It's literally a tiny blip on the stat sheet of gun violence in the US. And very, very few of the gun deaths in the US come from anything other than pistols.

This is why I say if you want to change things, we need to really address the fundamental issues. I can almost guarantee someone will promote a poorly named 'assault weapons ban' in congress after this - it always happens - but no one seems to care that these rifles aren't the root issue. Why is the US so violent? Something is different here, and it's not just the number of guns.

I'm not suggesting that some sort of modification of federal gun laws won't help, but it rings hollow when the US averages twice as many people killed every day in the US (36.4 deaths/day, excluding suicide). These mass shootings are horrible, but account for a tiny fraction of those killed annually in the US. Something is broken, and I want to know what it is - and it's not just gun laws....
i know what you are getting at, but this mass shooting matters in the grand scheme for the 17 families that lost their kids, and the hundreds of other kids and teachers and their families that will have to spend the rest of their lives dealing with this. there are myriad issues and problems going on and there will not be one single solution to deal with them all and trying to address issues with mass shootings does not preclude dealing with other issues.

i think handguns need much stricter regulation as well. in georgia at least, you don't need much more than a pulse and $70 or so to get a concealed carry permit. and there are a lot of folks that think that is too much regulation.
 
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cbi1972

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but when you present the idea to folks that guns are a guard against governmental tyranny, you can't assume that only like minded folks will agree with you about what constitutes tyranny. hell, there were folks on this board swearing up and down that we were the victims of tyranny because they had to sign up for healthcare.
There are lots of different kinds of tyranny, and an appropriate response to each.

An overly intrusive Census questionnaire is a very minor type, and the appropriate method of resistance is to refuse to cooperate by not filling it out.

No-knock warrants are a more serious type, and the appropriate response is debatable, but there is a case to be made for self-defense.

Then there are all the uncontrovertibly egregious violations that people say could never happen here, which widespread firearm ownership makes sure of, and action against which will be either classified as treason or patriotism, depending on your view.

To lump them all together is to commit the fallacy of equivocation.
 

crimsonaudio

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i know what you are getting at, but this mass shooting matters in the grand scheme for the 17 families that lost their kids, and the hundreds of other kids and teachers and their families that will have to spend the rest of their lives dealing with this.
I get it, again, I feel for them. I wish I could *blink* and make this tragedy disappear.

My point is if we really want to fix gun violence, we need to dig deeper than the superficial. yes, the families and this community will be rocked, some will be forever changed, but this horrible act. But emotional reactions shouldn't dictate policy - we need to make sure we're addressing the issue, not just throwing a bandaid on a gushing wound.

there are myriad issues and problems going on and there will not be one single solution to deal with them all and trying to address issues with mass shootings does not preclude dealing with other issues.
Agreed. My point is we need a systematic set of answers. All to often we react to something and it results in unintended consequences. We as a country need to work to gather to figure out why this is happening and what solutions are viable.

Sure, we can ban 'semiautomatic rifles that look like military weapons', but we all know these broken souls who kill people will simply use the next available tool. And we also know that a ban on these rifles will have very little affect on the overall gun violence numbers in the US.

i think handguns need much stricter regulation as well. in georgia at least, you don't need much more than a pulse and $70 or so to get a concealed carry permit. and there are a lot of folks that think that is too much regulation.
Sure, I know folks who think the 2A has absolute, that citizens should be allowed to have anything they can carry. I don't feel his way, personally, but I do think we have to tread lightly when we're talking about something that has been enumerated as an individual right.

The real question no one wants to discuss is what is wrong in our society now? Heck, half the kids in my HS had hunting rifles hanging in the rear windows of their pickups -16 year-old kids with rifles that would go hunting after school, yet I never once heard of any gun violence. Something has changed, as access to firearms is more difficult today than it's ever been in the US, yet these mass shootings are becoming more common. We need to answer the 'why' before we start trying to fix it, otherwise, we're just bandaging up someone who is bleeding out with trying to determine why they're bleeding in the first place.
 

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