This forum is misnamed

MobtownK

All-American
Nov 20, 2004
3,497
7,584
187
44
Mobile, Alabama, United States
Let’s just say that it’s gotten to the point that I don’t even try anymore to have a conversation about politics with Trump supporters. After nearly getting into an actual fight with one of my good friends because he accused me of hating America, after I have spent a whole year of my life in Afghanistan, just because he couldn’t Produce facts to support his position I told myself I was done with talking to them about Trump because you stand more to lose in the end.

I keep hearing this rationale being brought up, but I wasn’t alive when it happened. So maybe you, @selmaborntidefan, or any others could clear it up. But I’ve had many Trump supporters tell me that Reagan was this hated for the things he did, but now everyone says he is great president or atleast a very effective one. I’ve even had a professor say that.
I steer clear with family, but there are some who now say that trump is the best of their lifetime. I've heard republicans recently bash Reagan. Reagan had amnesty, and Bush TARP - he was "too soft" & didn't "hand it to the libs". While people say they don't like the drama and the vitriol, they really do. They crave it and reinforce it. If they didn't, we wouldn't be where we are now.
I would take Bush or Obama any day. I didn't agree with everything either did, but at least I thought both had compassion, love our country, and didn't actually want a percentage of us dead.
 
  • Thank You
Reactions: UAH

selmaborntidefan

TideFans Legend
Mar 31, 2000
36,432
29,736
287
54
I keep hearing this rationale being brought up, but I wasn’t alive when it happened. So maybe you, @selmaborntidefan, or any others could clear it up. But I’ve had many Trump supporters tell me that Reagan was this hated for the things he did, but now everyone says he is great president or atleast a very effective one. I’ve even had a professor say that.
Short answer: anyone who even remotely compares Ronald Reagan with Donald Trump, quite frankly, doesn't know ANYTHING about either one of them.

The long answer is in the next post.
 

selmaborntidefan

TideFans Legend
Mar 31, 2000
36,432
29,736
287
54
I keep hearing this rationale being brought up, but I wasn’t alive when it happened. So maybe you, @selmaborntidefan, or any others could clear it up. But I’ve had many Trump supporters tell me that Reagan was this hated for the things he did, but now everyone says he is great president or at least a very effective one. I’ve even had a professor say that.
The problem with Reagan isn't the problem with Reagan, it's with both his sycophants who don't even correctly recall his Presidency AND his modern critics who use shorthand to dismiss him simply since he was a Republican. We'll probably be here awhile on this post, but since you asked for an answer I'll give mine.

(I'll not debate specific fine points of "oh he this or that" - nobody is perfect, nor will be all agree).

When Reagan ran for President in 1980, this country was still probably slightly just less than 50% Democratic and maybe about 1/3 Republican at most. But consider who the man actually was: he had been an Army reserve officer, but he never saw combat (and never pretended he did); he was a grade B movie actor (he was known as "Errol Flynn of the B movies"), the head of a union, and in his younger days he had self-identified as a bleeding heart liberal Democrat. He began as an unapologetic supporter of FDR, but he became disillusioned about some things and his basic core concept was he felt as government was expanding spending into providing "guarantees" and things like Social Security and welfare, it was simultaneously intruding on freedom. In some ways - some appealing, some not - Reagan held a simplistic, Norman Rockwell painting view of what America SHOULD be. (One of his great failings was not realizing that the life he had wasn't the life some of the even less fortunate had).

But Trump was born wealthy; Reagan himself said he wasn't born across the tracks, but he could hear the whistle. His father was an old Irishman, the town drunk. Both of these guys did have some psychological issues, but Reagan dealt with his by writing "happy endings" to all the stories; Trump is the center of all of his own.

When Reagan ran for governor of California in 1966, he was running less than two years after Lyndon Johnson had (supposedly) nuclear bombed the Republican Party out of existence in the landslide against Goldwater. Not only that but Pat Brown (Jerry's dad) was a helluva good politician himself. So you had a past getting employment movie actor (he'd been hosting "Death Valley Days" for years as well) running in a minority party in the state of fruits and nuts - and while California was not nearly as wacko in some ways as it is now, that state has been a hotbed of political experimenting (good and bad) since Hiram Johnson.

Reagan won, and his first four years were, well, a comedy of errors to put it mildly. But you have to give the man credit: when he botched something, he LEARNED FROM IT. When he made political boo-boos as leader, he learned from them and rarely made them again. While Reagan held the same views on homosexuality (here we go) as most folks in that day, he was a guy who would stand up for what he thought was right. There was a particularly demagogic member of his staff that was trying to pass some anti-gay housing laws back then - and Reagan, who was hardly Socrates, saw it for what it was and had nothing to do with it.

Here's a shorthand:

I know Reagan gets popped on the word "states rights" for one speech he gave in 1980, but consider this: a local Klan chapter endorsed Reagan publicly, and he very publicly and promptly threw it right back, and actually said that these are people who don't understand that times have changed, he was flat out unhappy about it.

Donald Trump, who insists he knows more than everyone, wouldn't even denounce David Duke, the former Klansman.

Reagan had his set of old-fashioned values. Whether you agreed or not, whether you liked them or not, he had them, and he DEFENDED them. When Reagan got a poll that showed people disagreed with him, he'd smile and say, "We'll just have to persuade them that they're wrong." Trump calls every single poll that could teach him something "fake" and "fraud." Reagan admired Richard Nixon's political skills and also though he was one of the most mannerless and rude individuals he ever met.

Reagan got elected by President by something that is absolutely foreign to Republicans nowadays - he went into the other states, and in some cases he CALMLY took contrarian positions on issues that left him open to criticism. Yes, every once in awhile he botched it. At the beginning of the fall campaign, Reagan ripped into Carter, and said Carter was in Tuscumbia, Alabama, the home body of the KKK. The audience gasped (yes, this used to offend people) and the moment he got into the car to leave, he said, "I never should have said that." The next day, he publicly apologized - again, Trump would deny he ever said it OR he would insist that he was right (and probably draw a Sharpie over Tuscumbia).
 

selmaborntidefan

TideFans Legend
Mar 31, 2000
36,432
29,736
287
54
Let's take the single most important leadership decision Reagan made in his first term: the firing of striking Air Traffic Controllers in August of 1981. Republicans to this day present Reagan as a big, tough, stick swinging cowboy who put those unions in their place under our shoes. Democrats insist that was the end of the popularity of Big Labor. Both are wrong on almost all counts.

That union (PATCO) actually endorsed Reagan in 1980 at time when the labor movement was becoming more monolithic (once upon a time - generally - the AFLCIO was Democrats and the Teamsters was GOP). The ATC union organized for an ILLEGAL (key word) strike to shut down the nation's air travel. Reagan had a former construction guy as his Labor Secretary, Raymond Donovan, and his transportation secretary was Drew Lewis. They sat in and negotiated and it went on and on for months. The Republican version says that Reagan told them to stick it, fired them, and told them to go to Hell. Fine and dandy, but what ACTUALLY happened was Reagan got his own party made because (wait for it) he was trying to prevent the strike, and he had actually made some major concessions that he never had to make. What blew it all up was the union decided to drink the Kool-Aid - "hey, if he gave us this much by doing nothing, we'll win the whole thing with a strike." They went on strike, he gave them 48 hours to return (because he knew some were soft followers and might contemplate ramifications), and THEN he fired them. Trust me, it was a scary time - not much different than right now in some ways. Plane flights were down about 70% or more and you couldn't find a rental car.

When Reagan announced the firings - and you can see it on You Tube - he was a strong, decisive leader, but he was not a pontificating putz, either. He even said he SUPPORTED the right of unions in the private sector to strike (can you even imagine a Republican saying this nowadays?). He was strong with broad shoulders and saying little most of the time - none of that fake bully stuff, name calling, or references to "the failing" whatever.

But the Scott Walkers of the world, who were children (so was I, but I'm not a politician bound to lie my tail off), recall it as, "Reagan refused to negotiate and put them in their place." No, that's not what happened in any way. Indeed, his party feared they were being outfoxed by the union up until the very end.

Reagan said the best weapons are those that are never fired in combat;
Trump boasted about the size of his nuclear button (the one Reagan wanted to make obsolete)

Reagan said to "tear down this wall"
Trump is saying he's going to build one and make someone else pay for it

When he first took office, Reagan - learning from when the Democrats had owned the CA legislature - called in EVERY SINGLE Democrat and offered them a deal: vote for my tax and budget bills this first session, and I will not campaign against you in the first mid-term. There were some conservative Democrats back then who feared that if they opposed him they'd lose their jobs. Reagan's own party got mad, "Oh, but we could get the majority in 1982 if blah blah." Reagan was more interested in getting going than he was who won what House race in 1982. Btw - as Reagan was winding down, those who were still left and some who had retired recalled fondly, "He lived up to his word."

I think what a lot of people don't understand is this: the reason Reagan's approval rating plunged in November 1986 when the disclosure of selling arms to Iran (the Iran part of the Iran-Contra scandal) hit the airwaves, was because the public COULD NOT BELIEVE that this guy they considered generally honorable (if a bit of a dunce) would have sold arms to Iran, whom we all hated in 1986 for the hostages they took in 1979. Dick Wirthlin's own polls showed the public would have supported Reagan more if he'd sent arms to the Soviet Union than for sending them to Iran. This would not have hurt guys generally rated as sleazy - Harding, Nixon, Trump. They'd lose less than the margin of error.

Furthermore, a lot of these folks now have some very poor memories because in 1987 when Reagan and Gorbachev agreed to the INF treaty, it was LIBERALS who praised him and FAR RIGHT CONSERVATIVES who suddenly denounced him as "a lame duck."

When Reagan met with Gorbachev, he emphasized what OUR COUNTRIES were doing; when Trump met with the Korean guy (sorry, I never can keep the names straight), he boasted about how that guy loved him. Reagan didn't give a damn about that - he just wanted to save us from nuclear annihilation.

Trump sought Russian help to get him elected; Reagan scared Russia into negotiating. (And yes, I'm aware that part of that was due to internal problems - but they'd had internal problems for decades, too).

When Congresspersons in Reagan's own party voted against him on legislation, he just accepted it and still campaigned for those people to stay in Congress; Trump gives them a name and talks about how awful they are.

I'm curious as to what specifically any Trump voter can tell you people were mad at Reagan about but now think was good.


He got 241 Marines killed in Beirut on an ill-advised and ill-defined mission - but it should be noted that when that began, it started great and then went haywire with killing after killing of leader after leader.

He mismanaged the AIDS virus, but unlike Trump reflected in 1990 that he wished he'd had a magic wand because he didn't understand it. He WAS to blame for much of how that happened because it wasn't until 1985 that he got a briefing on it. And even then, he was standing up against Gary Bauer and Phyllis Schafly within the administration's connections to the religious right. He didn't want AIDS victims to be pariahs in society, but yes, he did poorly on that. I don't see anyone calling it a stellar moment for the guy.

OK, he didn't do so well with the deficit, and we can blame him for some of that - but remember that he had to compromise with a non-filibuster proof Senate and a Democratic House, and he liked defense spending while they liked domestic spending, so here we go.

But here's the difference:
- when Reagan was told his tax cuts were exploding the deficit, he DID raise taxes to try to stop it
- when Reagan was told in 1983 that Social Security was going to go bankrupt, he appointed a bipartisan commission that hashed things out

Trump has and will do neither of those things.

Much of the "hate" towards Reagan was primarily political posturing and exaggeration. Hell, some of the budget cuts he was making early on had actually already been sent in by CARTER! (Reagan didn't feel any need to spend more on it if Carter didn't).

Reagan would NEVER have called Carter or Mondale "crooked." Yes, he disagreed with them and yes, you got the political jargon - but most of Reagan's joshes could have been told by Johnny Carson.
He never would have sought Russian help to get elected.
And when he was under fire for Iran-Contra, he appointed a commission to investigate it and air the dirty laundry rather than use his AG as an extra blocker to fend off the blitz

I'm sorry, but I draw the line when that nonsense comes up.


I don't know where I'd rate Reagan on the all-time great scale. He WAS either the 2nd or 3rd most dominant politician of his decade in the 20th century (behind FDR and you can decide if he was more prominent than Teddy or not - but given TV, he likely was). His schmoozers make this impossible as do those loud voices who think ANYTHING Republican has to be Klan level material.

Reagan was a consensus, pragmatic politician, but he had one strength that even he knew - the ability to give a speech on TV and sound authentic and believable regardless.

Reagan hired people who opposed him politically if he was told they were good at the job; Trump hires people to kiss his behind and talk about how great he is.

Let me summarize like this: Reagan hired the Spencer-Roberts consulting firm in 1966 to run his CA campaign at time they were blacklisted from the GOP because they'd opposed Goldwater in CA. He then hired George H W Bush's best friend, James Baker, as his first chief of staff - despite the fact Baker not only worked for Bush but for Gerald Ford to beat Reagan in 1976.

Love him or hate him, Reagan was authentic and Trump is a top to bottom phony.
 

selmaborntidefan

TideFans Legend
Mar 31, 2000
36,432
29,736
287
54
Having had a good night's rest, I'll add a couple of other important differences.

1) Reagan was NOT an isolationist, he was deeply moved by the Holocaust, and he understood NATO was a necessity.

Again - the contrast with Trump couldn't be more stark. Reagan DID understand as he said by his own words that "nobody but us can" lead the charge for world peace, but he also understood he needed allies to hold it all together. This Pat Buchanan section of the GOP - this AT A MINIMUM borderline anti-Semitic, isolationist ("America first"), arrogant approach to foreign policy now is the predominant GOP theme - from Rand Paul to the President. Because of the years I spent in Europe growing up (5 of my first 14 years), I cringe many times when things are said that sound as if they're directly taken from Nazi propaganda - and I'm hesitant to just label someone, but Trump gives off that stench without question. Reagan was really the last Republican President who was generally popular with the Jewish people - and he threw it all away when he went to Bitburg to commemorate the 40th anniversary of the end of WW2. It was another of his tone deaf decisions, but he paid for it big time.

2) I cannot imagine Reagan invading Iraq after we were attacked by the terrorists based in Afghanistan.

I just can't do it. I've long argued the real break of the GOP with reality - so much as one can say anything is a single cause - was W's decision to toss aside 200-plus years of American precedent and commit trillions to a useless war in Iraq. Remember - the reason the covert war was going on in Nicaragua was because Reagan wasn't going to commit American troops to a Vietnam-type engagement (for which we can all be grateful), so his underlings were financing contras inside the country rather than sending troops. In his last year, the GOP minority in the Senate was still pushing him to be more involved in the old "we have to stop the spread of Communism in Central America," but he wisely knew that little actions become big wars. Again, he wasn't a foreign policy genius by any stretch, but he DID understand that a leader can be overtaken by events in foreign countries as happened to both Truman and LBJ. Hell, it was controversial enough when he send troops into Grenada - but his fear was that the medical students might be taken hostage a la Iran - and unlike Iran, they were out on an island so good luck.

3) Can you even imagine Trump sitting down in negotiations with someone like Mikhail Gorbachev?

It's been kind of rewritten and forgotten now but Reagan's aides were absolutely terrified of his first meeting with Gorby. His tendency to be lazy and take it easy and not read briefing books was well known - so his advisers had MOVIES made about the USSR and their leadership because he wouldn't read a book, but he most certainly would watch films (for obvious reasons). When he met Gorby in Geneva in 1985, he was probably better prepare for that summit meeting than for any other meeting in his entire eight years. @81usaf92 - not sure if you know about this but in October 1986, those two met in Rejkavik (Iceland) and got into it over the Strategic Defense Initiative (aka the missile defense program). Gorby wanted to focus on that one issue and to stop American research into missile defense; Reagan told him that wasn't even on the table. Back and forth they went over an entire weekend - until the moment when Reagan stood up and said the meeting was over. George Schultz (secretary of State) came out to brief the whole world, and the look on his face was "we came this close and nothing." But when Reagan got back to the USA, he got on TV and gave one of his smooth speeches about "everything was negotiable except two things, our freedom and our future."

Reagan was a union negotiator with an impeccable sense of timing, a guy who played the long game.
If Trump would have been in negotiations with Gorby, we'd all be speaking Russian now. He would have handed over all the research data to SDI - probably live on the networks - and then after signing the worst deal in history, he'd have gotten on TV and boasted about how he was the first President to ever get an arms control deal with the USSR and - oh yeah - "the Russian people really love me." Reagan knew it was better to be feared than loved by the Soviet Union.

4) Reagan's Court appointments

Reagan was the first US President with a big-state background since his old hero, FDR. He used the knowledge he'd gained to understand that the courts were part of his long-term success. His AG (his personal attorney, William French Smith) set up a group called OLP that had as its design an interview process to elicit a judge's general philosophy. Important point: there were no "litmus test" questions asked of the potential nominees. In general, though, they got at least center right judges and occasionally some hard right judges who (get this) were actually qualified to sit on the bench.

Remember this - Reagan was a pro-life President (at least in the song he was singing), but he never sought to make sure he appointed judges that would overturn Roe v Wade. His first appointment to the High Court was Sandra O'Connor, whom he met and liked and thought was a smart lady. (There's another one for you - Reagan was drawn to strong women including his second wife, Nancy, and Margaret Thatcher as well as Jeane Kirkpatrick; the comparison with Trump goes unsaid). When Jerry Falwell brought up that as a state senator from Arizona she'd authorized the informing of pregnant women all of their options INCLUDING legal abortion, Reagan asked her about it. She simply told him that she thought abortion was abhorrent, but her personal views weren't how she was going to judge cases - which unlike the modern dogmatists was good enough for him.

Consider this - back when Republicans considered the ABA an authority, Reagan appointed more judges in the top two categories ("exceptionally well qualified" and "well qualified") than any other President in history. Everyone remembers "but Bork didn't make it," but that was also a very public exception.

Reagan appointed qualified judges to advance his general philosophy of life and justice;
Trump appoints judges based on the notion that they're going to do something for him personally.

Reagan insisted on the independence of the office of the Attorney General, even when his first one was his own lawyer; Trump insists that his Attorney General has an obligation to defend anything Trump does.


Reagan did not have Trump's advantages or upbringing.
He also didn't have his mouth or shoddy track record in business.
Reagan understood we are a country of immigrants.
Trump thinks "only white men need apply" in his actions.

And can you even imagine Trump trying to give the speech after the explosion of the Challenger - on the day the State of the Union was scheduled to occur?

Reagan - we all know the speech, it is a magnificent ode to empathy and determination

Trump - "Today on a lunch pad in Cape Carnival, six astronauts - you know, I don't consider a woman who did nothing more than teach class and win a lucky drawing to be, you know, on the same page as those who gave their lives to the space program.......today, a tragedy occurred in the skies over Atlanta, when the Challenging Space Shuttle......I always like a good challenge, good fit challenge, a good challenging challenge can make us all better ya know - like we're gonna make American better - but this tragedy did not have to happen. I warned NASA that one day we would have a tragic, horrible accident and they were taking too many chances by sending this WO-man to outer space to orbit Venus. They should have listened to me. They really should have. BUT....let us go forth from this tragedy, and I have appointed an investigation body to be led by Jared Kushner and to fix the blame in this problem so that it never happens again. We celebrate the lives of (mispronounces all 7 names)......who gave they lives so American might be great again. God bless America."
 

selmaborntidefan

TideFans Legend
Mar 31, 2000
36,432
29,736
287
54
Just to add a minor point, Reagan had the best radio voice of any politician I've ever heard. Radio was a more important medium in 1980. Reagan's voice was like honey. He sounded like an all-American grandfather. The man was easy to like. Trump is easy to dislike.
Might be because his first "career" was as a sports radio announcer, too. He called Cubs games in Iowa. More precisely - he recreated them based on what the teletype told him.

The man was a storyteller for sure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Go Bama and UAH

TIDE-HSV

Senior Administrator
Staff member
Oct 13, 1999
84,625
39,852
437
Huntsville, AL,USA
Let’s just say that it’s gotten to the point that I don’t even try anymore to have a conversation about politics with Trump supporters. After nearly getting into an actual fight with one of my good friends because he accused me of hating America, after I have spent a whole year of my life in Afghanistan, just because he couldn’t Produce facts to support his position I told myself I was done with talking to them about Trump because you stand more to lose in the end.

I keep hearing this rationale being brought up, but I wasn’t alive when it happened. So maybe you, @selmaborntidefan, or any others could clear it up. But I’ve had many Trump supporters tell me that Reagan was this hated for the things he did, but now everyone says he is great president or atleast a very effective one. I’ve even had a professor say that.
I was not a Reagan fan. I didn't believe his economics worked and they don't...
 

UAH

All-American
Nov 27, 2017
3,611
4,169
187
I would offer this about President Reagan. Jimmy Carter appointed Paul Volker as Chair of the Federal Reserve who then began a long campaign to restore the international monetary system created by the Bretton Woods agreement. At the close of the Vietnam War and LBJ's Great Society spending, inflation was out of control with mortgage interest rates in the 15% to 17% range. At the time Reagan took office Volker instituted a tightening regime that extended through much of his first term. It thrust the country into a major recession in practically all economic sectors. Unemployment ran 10% in the industrial heartland. Bond markets were upended and equity markets were hammered. To my recollection President Reagan weathered this and never pleaded for an easing of monetary policy in any way in the manner of our current Bumbler in Chief. To me this is in the top 2-3 of President Reagan's achievements that led the way to the strong economic recovery in the 90's and the balanced budget that came during Clinton's Presidency. Can anyone imagine Trump putting his Presidency on the line for the sake of future economic prosperity?

I agree with criticism of trickle down economics. It doesn't work at all but it apparently remains the Republican party's primary economic theology today.

As an addendum Paul Volker would find the Fed's management from Greenspan forward to be completely reckless and irresponsible.
 

selmaborntidefan

TideFans Legend
Mar 31, 2000
36,432
29,736
287
54
I would offer this about President Reagan. Jimmy Carter appointed Paul Volker as Chair of the Federal Reserve who then began a long campaign to restore the international monetary system created by the Bretton Woods agreement. At the close of the Vietnam War and LBJ's Great Society spending, inflation was out of control with mortgage interest rates in the 15% to 17% range. At the time Reagan took office Volker instituted a tightening regime that extended through much of his first term. It thrust the country into a major recession in practically all economic sectors. Unemployment ran 10% in the industrial heartland. Bond markets were upended and equity markets were hammered. To my recollection President Reagan weathered this and never pleaded for an easing of monetary policy in any way in the manner of our current Bumbler in Chief. To me this is in the top 2-3 of President Reagan's achievements that led the way to the strong economic recovery in the 90's and the balanced budget that came during Clinton's Presidency. Can anyone imagine Trump putting his Presidency on the line for the sake of future economic prosperity?

I agree with criticism of trickle down economics. It doesn't work at all but it apparently remains the Republican party's primary economic theology today.

As an addendum Paul Volker would find the Fed's management from Greenspan forward to be completely reckless and irresponsible.
You remember correctly.

In Reagan's first week on the job, he strolled down the street (freaking out the Secret Service) and had a meeting with Paul Volcker. Now follow me in this: Reagan had been exposed to right-wing propaganda in "Human Events" and "The Washington Times", claims that we should abolish the Federal Reserve. Reagan - almost childlike - went into the meeting and got to the point - "Some people say we should abolish the Federal Reserve. Why do we need it?" Volcker spent the next hour explaining it to Reagan - who never again in eight years asked the question and never once tried to undercut him.....and reappointed him as well.

Lou Cannon's "Reagan" biography spells it out pretty well and notes that his greatest domestic achievement was taming inflation.

It amuses me how many people treat Reagan as the Roddy Piper of the Oval Office.

The right wants to argue his Reaganomics caused prosperity and the proof is in his landslide re-election, the left wants to cherry pick their own stats as well - and even when they get cornered on the credit for inflation, the go with Volker (and only because he was a Democrat). That's all fine and good.....except who reappointed Volker over the objections of his advisors?

Reaganomics can be a terrible economic theory (and it is), but the guy in charge when things change still gets the credit.


Donald Trump is incapable of grasping the simplest concepts when they contradict his rigid assumptions.
 

UAH

All-American
Nov 27, 2017
3,611
4,169
187
You remember correctly.

In Reagan's first week on the job, he strolled down the street (freaking out the Secret Service) and had a meeting with Paul Volcker. Now follow me in this: Reagan had been exposed to right-wing propaganda in "Human Events" and "The Washington Times", claims that we should abolish the Federal Reserve. Reagan - almost childlike - went into the meeting and got to the point - "Some people say we should abolish the Federal Reserve. Why do we need it?" Volcker spent the next hour explaining it to Reagan - who never again in eight years asked the question and never once tried to undercut him.....and reappointed him as well.

Lou Cannon's "Reagan" biography spells it out pretty well and notes that his greatest domestic achievement was taming inflation.

It amuses me how many people treat Reagan as the Roddy Piper of the Oval Office.

The right wants to argue his Reaganomics caused prosperity and the proof is in his landslide re-election, the left wants to cherry pick their own stats as well - and even when they get cornered on the credit for inflation, the go with Volker (and only because he was a Democrat). That's all fine and good.....except who reappointed Volker over the objections of his advisors?

Reaganomics can be a terrible economic theory (and it is), but the guy in charge when things change still gets the credit.


Donald Trump is incapable of grasping the simplest concepts when they contradict his rigid assumptions.
This may be hyperbole but if Trump was President instead of Reagan during Reagan's two terms The Soviet Union would be intact and stronger than ever. Berlin and Germany would still be divided east and west.

Seriously, to me Reagan's showing of strength toward the Soviets and close relationships with our allies, particularly Margaret Thatcher was his primary accomplishment. "Mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall" echoed throughout the world and positioned the US as the clear leader of the western alliance. It is more what Reagan stood for rather than his legislative accomplishments that should be his legacy.

I agree with many of the criticisms toward his support of deregulation and trickle down tax policy particularly with 20/20 hindsight.

We can however, say that what exist today is not the conservative Republican Party that existed under Ronald Reagan.
 

selmaborntidefan

TideFans Legend
Mar 31, 2000
36,432
29,736
287
54
This may be hyperbole but if Trump was President instead of Reagan during Reagan's two terms The Soviet Union would be intact and stronger than ever. Berlin and Germany would still be divided east and west.
It would likely be worse because Trump has 1/10th of Reagan's intellect, and Reagan was one of the most intellectually challenged Presidents we ever had.

Let me put it bluntly: if Trump had beaten Carter in 1980 and taken office, the hostages would have probably remained in Iran until after Trump left office. Carter's people brought Reagan's in so they would know what was going on in hopes that if a deal was made Reagan would not renege on it even if he didn't like the terms.

If Trump had gotten word of the negotiations, he would have grandstanded, blamed Carter for them getting taken hostage in the first place, brought up the failed helicopter rescue mission, and said this was a "terrible" deal, and his skill was deal making, and he'd handle it.

Then he would have ticked off the Iranians and - most likely - gotten a few of them killed just to drive home the point of where the leverage was. Then he would have had a press conference where he wanted praise for his negotiating skill, he would have said the crisis would "just go away real soon", and then he would have said he wasn't responsible and that the entire problem was because Jimmy Carter was "weak."

The Soviet Union very likely would have expanded and seized lands that could make up for their shortcomings, and Trump would not have been willing to bankrupt them by sending money to the mujahedeen in Afghanistan to drain their resources.

Quite frankly, the USSR MIGHT rule the entire world today if 2016 Trump had beaten 1980 Carter.

Seriously, to me Reagan's showing of strength toward the Soviets and close relationships with our allies, particularly Margaret Thatcher was his primary accomplishment. "Mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall" echoed throughout the world and positioned the US as the clear leader of the western alliance. It is more what Reagan stood for rather than his legislative accomplishments that should be his legacy.
Notice also that unlike the old man with the orange hair, Reagan did not BOAST about his ongoing military buildup. "Well, you think you have a lot of missiles and a big army, but I'm building the biggest, most awesome army - nobody thought it could be done!" Reagan was that quiet guy with a lot of muscles sitting in the bar minding his own business that you didn't jack with.

I agree with many of the criticisms toward his support of deregulation and trickle down tax policy particularly with 20/20 hindsight.

We can however, say that what exist today is not the conservative Republican Party that existed under Ronald Reagan.
Yes, but keep in mind deregulation had become a huge deal by the late 1970s. Several industries - trucking and airline come to mind - were being deregulated before Reagan was even the nominee. His mistake in that whole deal was he didn't understand that there's a huge difference between deregulating finance and deregulating travel. And as has been pointed out ad nauseum - he was to blame, but he was hardly singing a solo. Congress was all on board with him because the finance guys (the S/Ls, etc) make big donations to the political war chests of both parties. Every once in awhile you'd have a rare Democrat or even a middle of the road Republican speak up - but Congress isn't going to sign on to losing campaign funds until they must.

The problem with the GOP is NOT Reagan or even Daddy Bush; it's the problem of the wrong lessons that the next generation (Newt Gingrich, in particular) took from Reagan's electoral success.


Just remember this: when Rush Limbaugh started out, he would have thought Donald Trump was an embarrassment of a human being, businessman, politician. REAGAN was the man, Trump was an impostor, not even worthy of being a RINO.

Nowadays, Rush has forgotten all about the Reagan he praised.

I can guarantee you with 99% certainty that were they alive today, both Reagan and Bush 41 would be voting for Joseph Biden.
 

MobtownK

All-American
Nov 20, 2004
3,497
7,584
187
44
Mobile, Alabama, United States
It would likely be worse because Trump has 1/10th of Reagan's intellect, and Reagan was one of the most intellectually challenged Presidents we ever had.

Let me put it bluntly: if Trump had beaten Carter in 1980 and taken office, the hostages would have probably remained in Iran until after Trump left office. Carter's people brought Reagan's in so they would know what was going on in hopes that if a deal was made Reagan would not renege on it even if he didn't like the terms.

If Trump had gotten word of the negotiations, he would have grandstanded, blamed Carter for them getting taken hostage in the first place, brought up the failed helicopter rescue mission, and said this was a "terrible" deal, and his skill was deal making, and he'd handle it.

Then he would have ticked off the Iranians and - most likely - gotten a few of them killed just to drive home the point of where the leverage was. Then he would have had a press conference where he wanted praise for his negotiating skill, he would have said the crisis would "just go away real soon", and then he would have said he wasn't responsible and that the entire problem was because Jimmy Carter was "weak."

The Soviet Union very likely would have expanded and seized lands that could make up for their shortcomings, and Trump would not have been willing to bankrupt them by sending money to the mujahedeen in Afghanistan to drain their resources.

Quite frankly, the USSR MIGHT rule the entire world today if 2016 Trump had beaten 1980 Carter.



Notice also that unlike the old man with the orange hair, Reagan did not BOAST about his ongoing military buildup. "Well, you think you have a lot of missiles and a big army, but I'm building the biggest, most awesome army - nobody thought it could be done!" Reagan was that quiet guy with a lot of muscles sitting in the bar minding his own business that you didn't jack with.



Yes, but keep in mind deregulation had become a huge deal by the late 1970s. Several industries - trucking and airline come to mind - were being deregulated before Reagan was even the nominee. His mistake in that whole deal was he didn't understand that there's a huge difference between deregulating finance and deregulating travel. And as has been pointed out ad nauseum - he was to blame, but he was hardly singing a solo. Congress was all on board with him because the finance guys (the S/Ls, etc) make big donations to the political war chests of both parties. Every once in awhile you'd have a rare Democrat or even a middle of the road Republican speak up - but Congress isn't going to sign on to losing campaign funds until they must.

The problem with the GOP is NOT Reagan or even Daddy Bush; it's the problem of the wrong lessons that the next generation (Newt Gingrich, in particular) took from Reagan's electoral success.


Just remember this: when Rush Limbaugh started out, he would have thought Donald Trump was an embarrassment of a human being, businessman, politician. REAGAN was the man, Trump was an impostor, not even worthy of being a RINO.

Nowadays, Rush has forgotten all about the Reagan he praised.

I can guarantee you with 99% certainty that were they alive today, both Reagan and Bush 41 would be voting for Joseph Biden.
I occasionally listened to Rush during the 2016 primaries. He didn't think Trump conservative at all. Said they were buddies, but thought he was a blowhard. His tune changed once he won the nomination.
 
  • Thank You
Reactions: UAH

UAH

All-American
Nov 27, 2017
3,611
4,169
187
It would likely be worse because Trump has 1/10th of Reagan's intellect, and Reagan was one of the most intellectually challenged Presidents we ever had.

Let me put it bluntly: if Trump had beaten Carter in 1980 and taken office, the hostages would have probably remained in Iran until after Trump left office. Carter's people brought Reagan's in so they would know what was going on in hopes that if a deal was made Reagan would not renege on it even if he didn't like the terms.

If Trump had gotten word of the negotiations, he would have grandstanded, blamed Carter for them getting taken hostage in the first place, brought up the failed helicopter rescue mission, and said this was a "terrible" deal, and his skill was deal making, and he'd handle it.

Then he would have ticked off the Iranians and - most likely - gotten a few of them killed just to drive home the point of where the leverage was. Then he would have had a press conference where he wanted praise for his negotiating skill, he would have said the crisis would "just go away real soon", and then he would have said he wasn't responsible and that the entire problem was because Jimmy Carter was "weak."

The Soviet Union very likely would have expanded and seized lands that could make up for their shortcomings, and Trump would not have been willing to bankrupt them by sending money to the mujahedeen in Afghanistan to drain their resources.

Quite frankly, the USSR MIGHT rule the entire world today if 2016 Trump had beaten 1980 Carter.



Notice also that unlike the old man with the orange hair, Reagan did not BOAST about his ongoing military buildup. "Well, you think you have a lot of missiles and a big army, but I'm building the biggest, most awesome army - nobody thought it could be done!" Reagan was that quiet guy with a lot of muscles sitting in the bar minding his own business that you didn't jack with.



Yes, but keep in mind deregulation had become a huge deal by the late 1970s. Several industries - trucking and airline come to mind - were being deregulated before Reagan was even the nominee. His mistake in that whole deal was he didn't understand that there's a huge difference between deregulating finance and deregulating travel. And as has been pointed out ad nauseum - he was to blame, but he was hardly singing a solo. Congress was all on board with him because the finance guys (the S/Ls, etc) make big donations to the political war chests of both parties. Every once in awhile you'd have a rare Democrat or even a middle of the road Republican speak up - but Congress isn't going to sign on to losing campaign funds until they must.

The problem with the GOP is NOT Reagan or even Daddy Bush; it's the problem of the wrong lessons that the next generation (Newt Gingrich, in particular) took from Reagan's electoral success.


Just remember this: when Rush Limbaugh started out, he would have thought Donald Trump was an embarrassment of a human being, businessman, politician. REAGAN was the man, Trump was an impostor, not even worthy of being a RINO.

Nowadays, Rush has forgotten all about the Reagan he praised.

I can guarantee you with 99% certainty that were they alive today, both Reagan and Bush 41 would be voting for Joseph Biden.
This is a great discussion to me. I have attempted to begin to understand where Presidents stand on the liberal - conservative continuum. It is a bit of a tough topic. I mean where does one begin with Eisenhower or Reagan and go forward. What is the basic criterion for measuring relative conservatism. It is fairly consistent here for some of the most conservative members to be labeled as libs without a grasp of just how far to the right the Republican party has drifted. In Trump's case it seems we have drifted all the way to Fascism. In any case, I suspect that the Democratic Presidents from Truman forward have been generally moderate to conservative and obviously the Republican Presidents from Eisenhower forward up to Trump have not been ultra-conservatives at all. Offered for discussion as a topic I have been grappling with.
 

MobtownK

All-American
Nov 20, 2004
3,497
7,584
187
44
Mobile, Alabama, United States
This is a great discussion to me. I have attempted to begin to understand where Presidents stand on the liberal - conservative continuum. It is a bit of a tough topic. I mean where does one begin with Eisenhower or Reagan and go forward. What is the basic criterion for measuring relative conservatism. It is fairly consistent here for some of the most conservative members to be labeled as libs without a grasp of just how far to the right the Republican party has drifted. In Trump's case it seems we have drifted all the way to Fascism. In any case, I suspect that the Democratic Presidents from Truman forward have been generally moderate to conservative and obviously the Republican Presidents from Eisenhower forward up to Trump have not been ultra-conservatives at all. Offered for discussion as a topic I have been grappling with.
I grew up with the phrase "If you're not liberal when young, you're heartless. If you're not conservative when you grow older, you're a fool."
I still consider myself somewhat conservative, or at least moderate. Except socially.
People scoff at it now and consider it weak, but I think Bush's big tent compassionate conservatism brought more into the party than would have been, especially young people - as I was at the time. We can disagree with the method to help, but I was upset we didnt go into Darfur to help them.
I was too young during Reagan, but I would venture a guess that Reagan's amnesty did as well.
I would consider Obama closer to Reagan & Bush than Trump is. Only because all three understood the great contribution of immigrants to our nation and had compassion. All 3 worked with our allies. All 3 knew how to be statesmen, how to work within th system. Yes, there was vitriol, but nothing like the hyperpartisanship we have now. There were things that pushed the limits of the Constitution, but none that completely disregarded it like we have now - with almost zero consequences.

That being said, I have moved on the political spectrum. I was the exact opposite only 5 or 10 years ago (in the purple, I've never been in the top 1/2)...Even in spring, I was just inside the green - we had a discussion here.
The older I get, while I still agree with free market principles, it obviously can get out of hand. And profits can't be put over people or the environment.

IMHO, Trump & the GOP has done more for the cause of liberalism than the Democrats have in decades. Yes, they also have brought out the far right as well.
People have changed sides & become involved.

Screenshot_20200927-180612_Chrome.jpg
 
  • Like
  • Thank You
Reactions: UAH and B1GTide

Latest threads

TideFans.shop - NEW Stuff!

TideFans.shop - Get YOUR Bama Gear HERE!”></a>
<br />

<!--/ END TideFans.shop & item link \-->
<p style= Purchases made through our TideFans.shop and Amazon.com links may result in a commission being paid to TideFans.