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Transgender women in sports

92tide

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CrimsonNagus said:
My main issue with this article is that it ignores the very real scientific differences between natal genders. Right now, not all those differences are solved by medication or surgeries. I have no issues with people identifying as who ever makes them comfortable. When it comes to things like women's sports though, we can't just ignore the scientific facts.
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this is one of the links in that piece

www.aclu.org

Hecox v Little - Safer Declaration

www.aclu.org www.aclu.org
 
NationalTitles18

NationalTitles18

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crimsonaudio said:
First off, we can discuss the fairness of transgender participation in competitive sports while not stepping on the people involved or purposefully going out of our way to offend / hurt them. I'm speaking specifically about our discussion here on TF.com. Regardless as to how you feel about trans people, they're people and deserve our respect.

Based on the numbers, we likely have one (or more) TF.com members who are dealing with these issues.

If you believe it's a mental illness, they deserve even more gentleness, do they not? I'm not suggesting you have to champion their desired outcomes, but we can, at the very least, be respectful amongst ourselves.

That said, I think transgender athletes should either have their own division or, until that's possible, compete based on their biological gender. As we learn more about this we can reevaluate as needed, but for now that seems the most fair for all involved.
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Thank you. Discussion is good. Disrespect, not so much.

I've known transgender/intersex people for years (not equating the two, but they often go hand in hand). I've worked with them (most have, even if they didn't know it). I've had them for patients. I know people in my life dealing with the issue.

So while some believe they are being cute when they show us who they are, they are really just being unnecessarily hurtful.

This was an interesting Ted Talk from a while back. Not all transgender people are intersex. I do encourage everyone to watch, especially those who insist on being hurtful by misgendering people.

www.ted.com

The way we think about biological sex is wrong

Did you know that almost 150 million people worldwide are born intersex -- with biology that doesn't fit the standard definition of male or female? (That's as many as the population of Russia.) At age 10, Emily Quinn found out she was intersex, and in this wise, funny talk, she shares...
www.ted.com www.ted.com
 
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CrimsonTheory

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crimsonaudio said:
That said, I think transgender athletes should either have their own division or, until that's possible, compete based on their biological gender. As we learn more about this we can reevialuate as needed, but for now that seems the most fair for all involved.
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^This right here. No amount of surgeries and hormone's will ever make---in this case Lia Thomas---a female. Biologically speaking, Lia's body is still a male's body and that won't ever change. Male or females transitioning into their new gender should still compete in their orginial gender until there is enough competitors to create a transgender division.

The hate Lia and other transgenders athletes are getting is stupid. You can love the sinner but not the sin (and NO I am not calling changing gender's a sin).
 
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MobtownK

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NationalTitles18 said:
I'm sorry but there's no way to separate out the physical vs the social and just pretend one doesn't exist because of the other.

I've mainly been talking about those who are intersex (hermaphrodite). These folks were absolutely born the way they are. Many were assigned female at birth (there was a long article on one a while back). Do we all of a sudden tell them 1. they aren't female or 2. they can't compete? The intersex issue is muddy enough before we get to genetics or other issues that are less clear cut and less understood.



I doubt it.



Yep.
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Intersex is another issue, and could be separated out. I was sticking to biological males who transitioned after puberty. I know one person who is intersex. His parents had to choose. He identifies as male. That may change later. It may not.

They absolutely were born the way they are.

I'm only talking about cases like Lia's. She wants to be a woman! Fantastic! Join the club & come to girl's night with me! But to say that there are no physical advantages for her in women's competitive sports is disingenuous.
 
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Outside of this little corner of the interwebz I don’t interact much with folks online anymore. Even here I tend to limit myself quite a bit. One thing Covid has taught me about myself is that just don’t like people in general the way I used to.
This is definitely a complicated issue. The way I see it this is mostly manufactured outrage. If you’re not in the pool or the parent of someone in the pool, what does it really matter. I’m not speaking of the discussion here, just the general tone you see when something like this is covered by what is considered “news” anymore.
This is one of those things that make me wish I was born in a different time without TV, internet, etc.
I know I’m not furthering the finer points of the discussion here, but people suck.
 
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Crimson1967

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MobtownK said:
Intersex is another issue, and could be separated out. I was sticking to biological males who transitioned after puberty. I know one person who is intersex. His parents had to choose. He identifies as male. That may change later. It may not.

They absolutely were born the way they are.

I'm only talking about cases like Lia's. She wants to be a woman! Fantastic! Join the club & come to girl's night with me! But to say that there are no physical advantages for her in women's competitive sports is disingenuous.
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crimsonaudio

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Tug Tide said:
This is definitely a complicated issue. The way I see it this is mostly manufactured outrage. If you’re not in the pool or the parent of someone in the pool, what does it really matter. I’m not speaking of the discussion here, just the general tone you see when something like this is covered by what is considered “news” anymore.
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The civil rights movement would have died a quick death if white people had this same attitude.

This does no direct impact me or my family (at least right now), but suggesting that a group that has been largely ignored should fight their own battles, or believing that the NCAA has once again come up with a harebrained solution to an issue isn't just 'manufactured outrage'.

Certainly there are those who couldn't care less about the situation and are using it to leverage more hate for those they dislike, but there are many who realize this is a minefield we as a society must traverse, and historically speaking the more people working on solving the problem the better the solution has the potential to be.
 
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NationalTitles18

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MobtownK said:
Intersex is another issue, and could be separated out. I was sticking to biological males who transitioned after puberty. I know one person who is intersex. His parents had to choose. He identifies as male. That may change later. It may not.

They absolutely were born the way they are.

I'm only talking about cases like Lia's. She wants to be a woman! Fantastic! Join the club & come to girl's night with me! But to say that there are no physical advantages for her in women's competitive sports is disingenuous.
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Many who are intersex are assigned the wrong sex at birth or since they have characteristics of both it is therefore an interrelated issue. Take Caster Semenya's situation, for instance. Surely there are others, both male and female (as designated at birth, however imperfectly). I have no idea what percentage has overlap. I'm not certain that anyone knows.
 
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Tug Tide

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crimsonaudio said:
The civil rights movement would have died a quick death if white people had this same attitude.

This does no direct impact me or my family (at least right now), but suggesting that a group that has been largely ignored should fight their own battles, or believing that the NCAA has once again come up with a harebrained solution to an issue isn't just 'manufactured outrage'.

Certainly there are those who couldn't care less about the situation and are using it to leverage more hate for those they dislike, but there are many who realize this is a minefield we as a society must traverse, and historically speaking the more people working on solving the problem the better the solution has the potential to be.
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Well said CA.
 
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CrimsonNagus

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I bet those displaying most of the anger over these 4 kids would claim to be Christians. You cannot have this much hate and anger in your heart and be a true follower of Christ. Modern day Christian act more like the Pharisees of Jesus' time. I have no doubt in my mind that the Christians of today would speak out against the true teachings of Christ if he was walking the Earth today.
 
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