Trump Capitol Insurrection Part V

selmaborntidefan

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Btw - I realize that when it comes to DJT you throw all logic and common sense out the window but...

Let's take the old "Pence will declare these electors fraudulent plan." Let's say - solely for the sake of what would be a laugh if it weren't so serious - that Pence droned through and made his declaration Trump was President.

Were any of these guys dumb enough to believe that the House and Senate (controlled by the other party) were just going to sit there and nod and say, "Yes sir, three bags full?" Or that such a declaration wouldn't have any kind of legal binding anyway?

Was it ACTUALLY about Trump simply wanting someone to say he won so he could point back to "as you know, I actually won" - or what exactly? I mean, this to me - assuming he thought he could get away with this - is about like a school or workplace shooter actually convincing himself that he can kill 25 or 30 people and get out and go back to his house and act like nothing happened - and that everyone will go along with that.
 

Bamaro

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Btw - I realize that when it comes to DJT you throw all logic and common sense out the window but...

Let's take the old "Pence will declare these electors fraudulent plan." Let's say - solely for the sake of what would be a laugh if it weren't so serious - that Pence droned through and made his declaration Trump was President.

Were any of these guys dumb enough to believe that the House and Senate (controlled by the other party) were just going to sit there and nod and say, "Yes sir, three bags full?" Or that such a declaration wouldn't have any kind of legal binding anyway?

Was it ACTUALLY about Trump simply wanting someone to say he won so he could point back to "as you know, I actually won" - or what exactly? I mean, this to me - assuming he thought he could get away with this - is about like a school or workplace shooter actually convincing himself that he can kill 25 or 30 people and get out and go back to his house and act like nothing happened - and that everyone will go along with that.
I think the orange baffoon actually thought he might be able to get away with it. He also realized that if he didn't, there was the fall back position of complaining about the 'stollen' election and his uninformed minions would eat that up.
 
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Go Bama

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Was it ACTUALLY about Trump simply wanting someone to say he won so he could point back to "as you know, I actually won" - or what exactly?
Trump's personality will not allow him to admit he has ever lost at anything.


The grandiose narcissistic has an inflated positive self-image. When presented with contrary evidence, such as defeat or failure, the grandiose narcissist is likely to experience cognitive dissonance. In an attempt to reduce the discomfort of this dissonance, the grandiose narcissist redirects and externalises the blame. This strategy of reducing dissonance allows the grandiose narcissists’ self-image to stay intact.

Finally, the act of not apologising for one’s behaviour could also be a dissonance strategy. One study by researchers in Australia found refusing to apologise after doing something wrong allowed the perpetrator to keep their self-esteem intact.

It might be safe to say that, if Donald Trump’s denial of the election loss is a product of grandiose narcissism and dissonance, don’t hold your breath for an apology, let alone a graceful concession speech.
 

Jon

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Btw - I realize that when it comes to DJT you throw all logic and common sense out the window but...

Let's take the old "Pence will declare these electors fraudulent plan." Let's say - solely for the sake of what would be a laugh if it weren't so serious - that Pence droned through and made his declaration Trump was President.

Were any of these guys dumb enough to believe that the House and Senate (controlled by the other party) were just going to sit there and nod and say, "Yes sir, three bags full?" Or that such a declaration wouldn't have any kind of legal binding anyway?

Was it ACTUALLY about Trump simply wanting someone to say he won so he could point back to "as you know, I actually won" - or what exactly? I mean, this to me - assuming he thought he could get away with this - is about like a school or workplace shooter actually convincing himself that he can kill 25 or 30 people and get out and go back to his house and act like nothing happened - and that everyone will go along with that.
we know the plan, this is it

1. VP Pence, presiding over the joint session (or Senate Pro Tempore Grassley, if Pence recuses himself), begins to open and count the ballots, starting with Alabama (without conceding that the procedure, specified by the Electoral Count Act, of going through the States alphabetically is required).

2. When he gets to Arizona, he announces that he has multiple slates of electors, and so is going to defer decision on that until finishing the other States. This would be the first break with the procedure set out in the Act.

3. At the end, he announces that because of the ongoing disputes in the 7 States, there are no electors that can be deemed validly appointed in those States. That means the total number of “electors appointed” – the language of the 12th Amendment -- is 454. This reading of the 12th Amendment has also been advanced by Harvard Law Professor Laurence Tribe (here). A “majority of the electors appointed” would therefore be 228. There are at this point 232 votes for Trump, 222 votes for Biden. Pence then gavels President Trump as re-elected.

4. Howls, of course, from the Democrats, who now claim, contrary to Tribe’s prior position, that 270 is required. So Pence says, fine. Pursuant to the 12th Amendment, no candidate has achieved the necessary majority. That sends the matter to the House, where the “the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote . . . .” Republicans currently control 26 of the state delegations, the bare majority needed to win that vote. President Trump is re-elected there as well.

5. One last piece. Assuming the Electoral Count Act process is followed and, upon getting the objections to the Arizona slates, the two houses break into their separate chambers, we should not allow the Electoral Count Act constraint on debate to control. That would mean that a prior legislature was determining the rules of the present one — a constitutional no-no (as Tribe has forcefully argued). So someone – Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, etc. – should demand normal rules (which includes the filibuster). That creates a stalemate that would give the state legislatures more time to weigh in to formally support the alternate slate of electors, if they had not already done so.

6. The main thing here is that Pence should do this without asking for permission – either from a vote of the joint session or from the Court. Let the other side challenge his actions in court, where Tribe (who in 2001 conceded the President of the Senate might be in charge of counting the votes) and others who would press a lawsuit would have their past position -- that these are non-justiciable political questions – thrown back at them, to get the lawsuit dismissed. The fact is that the Constitution assigns this power to the Vice President as the ultimate arbiter. We should take all of our actions with that in mind.

 

twofbyc

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Trump's personality will not allow him to admit he has ever lost at anything.

He said as much - said he might make a mistake but he’d blame someone else.
In a video interview. He said it. And he still has supporters; what does that tell you about them?
 

92tide

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Trump's personality will not allow him to admit he has ever lost at anything.

the horrid part is, how many folks are willingly falling at his feet adoring him. apart from that, he would just be some annoying douchebag that occasionally shows up on tv and in the society pages and rips off people who are stupid enough to enter into any sort of agreement with him
 
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92tide

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we know the plan, this is it

1. VP Pence, presiding over the joint session (or Senate Pro Tempore Grassley, if Pence recuses himself), begins to open and count the ballots, starting with Alabama (without conceding that the procedure, specified by the Electoral Count Act, of going through the States alphabetically is required).

2. When he gets to Arizona, he announces that he has multiple slates of electors, and so is going to defer decision on that until finishing the other States. This would be the first break with the procedure set out in the Act.

3. At the end, he announces that because of the ongoing disputes in the 7 States, there are no electors that can be deemed validly appointed in those States. That means the total number of “electors appointed” – the language of the 12th Amendment -- is 454. This reading of the 12th Amendment has also been advanced by Harvard Law Professor Laurence Tribe (here). A “majority of the electors appointed” would therefore be 228. There are at this point 232 votes for Trump, 222 votes for Biden. Pence then gavels President Trump as re-elected.

4. Howls, of course, from the Democrats, who now claim, contrary to Tribe’s prior position, that 270 is required. So Pence says, fine. Pursuant to the 12th Amendment, no candidate has achieved the necessary majority. That sends the matter to the House, where the “the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote . . . .” Republicans currently control 26 of the state delegations, the bare majority needed to win that vote. President Trump is re-elected there as well.

5. One last piece. Assuming the Electoral Count Act process is followed and, upon getting the objections to the Arizona slates, the two houses break into their separate chambers, we should not allow the Electoral Count Act constraint on debate to control. That would mean that a prior legislature was determining the rules of the present one — a constitutional no-no (as Tribe has forcefully argued). So someone – Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, etc. – should demand normal rules (which includes the filibuster). That creates a stalemate that would give the state legislatures more time to weigh in to formally support the alternate slate of electors, if they had not already done so.

6. The main thing here is that Pence should do this without asking for permission – either from a vote of the joint session or from the Court. Let the other side challenge his actions in court, where Tribe (who in 2001 conceded the President of the Senate might be in charge of counting the votes) and others who would press a lawsuit would have their past position -- that these are non-justiciable political questions – thrown back at them, to get the lawsuit dismissed. The fact is that the Constitution assigns this power to the Vice President as the ultimate arbiter. We should take all of our actions with that in mind.

can you imagine the smug derpsplanations that would have emanated from the totally not a trump supporter set had this happened?

at a minimum, the lot of them should spend serious time pilloried on the national mall.
 
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selmaborntidefan

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we know the plan, this is it

1. VP Pence, presiding over the joint session (or Senate Pro Tempore Grassley, if Pence recuses himself), begins to open and count the ballots, starting with Alabama (without conceding that the procedure, specified by the Electoral Count Act, of going through the States alphabetically is required).

2. When he gets to Arizona, he announces that he has multiple slates of electors, and so is going to defer decision on that until finishing the other States. This would be the first break with the procedure set out in the Act.

3. At the end, he announces that because of the ongoing disputes in the 7 States, there are no electors that can be deemed validly appointed in those States. That means the total number of “electors appointed” – the language of the 12th Amendment -- is 454. This reading of the 12th Amendment has also been advanced by Harvard Law Professor Laurence Tribe (here). A “majority of the electors appointed” would therefore be 228. There are at this point 232 votes for Trump, 222 votes for Biden. Pence then gavels President Trump as re-elected.

4. Howls, of course, from the Democrats, who now claim, contrary to Tribe’s prior position, that 270 is required. So Pence says, fine. Pursuant to the 12th Amendment, no candidate has achieved the necessary majority. That sends the matter to the House, where the “the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote . . . .” Republicans currently control 26 of the state delegations, the bare majority needed to win that vote. President Trump is re-elected there as well.

5. One last piece. Assuming the Electoral Count Act process is followed and, upon getting the objections to the Arizona slates, the two houses break into their separate chambers, we should not allow the Electoral Count Act constraint on debate to control. That would mean that a prior legislature was determining the rules of the present one — a constitutional no-no (as Tribe has forcefully argued). So someone – Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, etc. – should demand normal rules (which includes the filibuster). That creates a stalemate that would give the state legislatures more time to weigh in to formally support the alternate slate of electors, if they had not already done so.

6. The main thing here is that Pence should do this without asking for permission – either from a vote of the joint session or from the Court. Let the other side challenge his actions in court, where Tribe (who in 2001 conceded the President of the Senate might be in charge of counting the votes) and others who would press a lawsuit would have their past position -- that these are non-justiciable political questions – thrown back at them, to get the lawsuit dismissed. The fact is that the Constitution assigns this power to the Vice President as the ultimate arbiter. We should take all of our actions with that in mind.

Well, yeah I know the Eastman memo.

I also know that even he cannot possibly be that stupid. Even he's backed off - and then didn't.

But he could not possibly have REALLY thought "we can do this and nobody can do anything about it."
Or could he?

I get the whole he wants somebody to say he won, the man is just plain insane. But actually thinking he could do that and somehow some written something somewhere made it all okay.......
 

Jon

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Well, yeah I know the Eastman memo.

I also know that even he cannot possibly be that stupid. Even he's backed off - and then didn't.

But he could not possibly have REALLY thought "we can do this and nobody can do anything about it."
Or could he?

I get the whole he wants somebody to say he won, the man is just plain insane. But actually thinking he could do that and somehow some written something somewhere made it all okay.......
I genuinely believe that Trump, Meadows and their co-conspirators thought this would work. If only Mike Pence didn't listen to Dan Quayle....

think about how scary that last sentence is.
 

NationalTitles18

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I genuinely believe that Trump, Meadows and their co-conspirators thought this would work. If only Mike Pence didn't listen to Dan Quayle....

think about how scary that last sentence is.
They were dead serious and truly did believe they could do it. Most don't seem to understand just how close we came to losing our country to these fools, or at the very least being thrown into severe instability and crisis. Trump basically nearly made the US a third world country and some actually would have been happy - for a time - with that.
 

Jon

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They were dead serious and truly did believe they could do it. Most don't seem to understand just how close we came to losing our country to these fools, or at the very least being thrown into severe instability and crisis. Trump basically nearly made the US a third world country and some actually would have been happy - for a time - with that.
they'd be thrilled. He'd start really hurting "the right people" and they would double down on how great of patriots they were to support it and then, predictably, Trump would turn on them too. Martin Niemöller would be spinning in his grave watching it happen again.



First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
 
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selmaborntidefan

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I genuinely believe that Trump, Meadows and their co-conspirators thought this would work. If only Mike Pence didn't listen to Dan Quayle....

think about how scary that last sentence is.
Quayle had a truckload of flaws.
Overseeing a coup never would have been one of them.

Trump has managed to elevate the reputation of.....wait for it.......Dan Quayle...........
 

selmaborntidefan

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Doesn't really go here but not sure where else to put it...


During an interview with ABC News Chief Washington Correspondent Jonathan Karl, Trump said that the two men didn't do enough to keep Republicans in control of the White House, despite the former president's clear election loss.

"If McConnell and McCarthy fought harder, okay, you could have a Republican president right now, and now they don't have anything," Trump said during the conversation in an audio clip from March 2021 released in advance of Karl's forthcoming book, "Betrayal: The Final Act of the Trump Show."


Roughly translated: "Nothing is my fault and here's a list of people to blame!"
 
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