We may be the first school to have TWO iconic coaches

DogPatch

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I virtually know zero Alabama fans that pull for ND but you can also throw Ara Parsegian into the mix, his 1966 team that played Michigan St to the infamous 10- 10 tie cost Bryant the 1966 National Championship and then 1973 defeated an unbeaten Alabama team 24-23 in which Alabama was ranked #1 and had them backed up on their side of the field and Tom Clemens hit a lame duck pass to their TE on 3rd and 8 to secure the win, talking about an alcoholic induced coma that was the night.
I pull for ND when they are not playing Bama, and twice as hard when they play Clemson.
 

Jkl0802

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I thought about this last night. Every football powerhouse seems to have that one iconic coach that will forever be associated with them. We, of course, have Coach Bryant, while Notre Dame has Knute Rockne, Oklahoma has Bud Wilkinson, Nebraska has Tom Osborne, etc...

The way Coach Saban is going, we might wind up with two truly iconic coaches for all time.
Are we just now coming to this realization? Where have you been for the last decade man?
 

selmaborntidefan

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IMO, the only coaches to approach Saban or Bryant status is Rockne and Leahy and their tenures were way too short to be included
Yes, let's blame Knute Rockne for dying in a plane crash..........

and some of Leahy's success was during the heavily diluted WWII years.
A fair point to consider where he ranks all-time, yes.

But on the other hand, Army had two Heisman winners in back-to-back years at that time, too, and nobody says, "Well yeah but."


IMO, there is no "might" to it - Saban is the GOAT, Bryant is also iconic and Rockne - IMO, no one else can lay a legitimate claim. Wade would come the closest because of putting both the South and ultimately the "greatest program" on the map but somehow, he doesn't quite get there. Of course, there is no bias here :).
I think what may shock folks is that when we consider ranking greatest ever, what exact level do we assign "happened to coach in an easier place to win?" I'm not trying in any way to detract from Saban, and his record speaks for itself as far as the top-to-bottom development of college players. But unless I'm missing something, Saban didn't invent anything like the "46 Defense" or "I formation" or "wishbone," although one CAN argue persuasively that he took things that already existed and did them better than anyone (which is also a point in his favor).

I think history will regard Saban as the greatest myself, but I think we do a disservice to coaches in the more regional game who hardly the advantages of an Alabama, Oklahoma, or Ohio State.
 
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81usaf92

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Yes, let's blame Knute Rockne for dying in a plane crash..........



A fair point to consider where he ranks all-time, yes.

But on the other hand, Army had two Heisman winners in back-to-back years at that time, too, and nobody says, "Well yeah but."




I think what may shock folks is that when we consider ranking greatest ever, what exact level do we assign "happened to coach in an easier place to win?" I'm not trying in any way to detract from Saban, and his record speaks for itself as far as the top-to-bottom development of college players. But unless I'm missing something, Saban didn't invent anything like the "46 Defense" or "I formation" or "wishbone," although one CAN argue persuasively that he took things that already existed and did them better than anyone (which is also a point in his favor).

I think history will regard Saban as the greatest myself, but I think we do a disservice to coaches in the more regional game who hardly the advantages of an Alabama, Oklahoma, or Ohio State.
I always have a hard time getting in the GOAT question amongst coaches. I think we do however have a consensus with Saban but passed that it’s difficult. I think we can mostly agree on who would probably be in the top 10 but we really have no idea the exact order or who is #10. For instance the Osborne vs Switzer question. You could argue both ways and sound reasonable. Hell you could even make and argument that neither deserve it.
 
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selmaborntidefan

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I always have a hard time getting in the GOAT question amongst coaches. I think we do however have a consensus with Saban but passed that it’s difficult. I think we can mostly agree on who would probably be in the top 10 but we really have no idea the exact order or who is #10. For instance the Osborne vs Switzer question. You could argue both ways and sound reasonable. Hell you could even make and argument that neither deserve it.
I think it's better to say "MAC" (Most accomplished coach) or "MAP" (Most accomplished player) than "GOAT" myself - aside from the fact for the longest time a "goat" was a player who made a mistake that cost his team a game or a championship (e.g. Lonnie Smith was the goat of the 1991 World Series).
 
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selmaborntidefan

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For instance the Osborne vs Switzer question. You could argue both ways and sound reasonable. Hell you could even make and argument that neither deserve it.
That's one of the more interesting issues.

Switzer had substantial advantages over Osborne on that one. Right up until the Lawrence Phillips saga, Osborne was one of "those guys you want your kid to play for." I'm not really sure where I fall on it. Look, I'm usually all for "he blew it, he's done." But Stallings was told that David Palmer NEEDED football by psychologists - or he was going to be even worse. (IIRC, something similar happened with Phillips, where Osborne's take was "look, I can just not play him and keep an eye on him").

If Lawrence Phillips did what he did in 1995 today, he'd likely be moved out of the dorm and out of the school even before the first press conference, particularly given what he did. And Nebraska's well-deserved and earned title would have a bit less of a smudge on it from those of us who lived through it.

Osborne DID inherit the Devaney system - but Perkins inherited the Bryant one, Bengston inherited Lombardi's, Dooley inherited Hallas', Jimmy Johnson even inherited Shula's.......but how many folks not named Tom Osborne or George Seifert kept it going more than through the last recruiting class of the previous guy? So Osborne DOES have to get some credit both for keeping it going AND adjusting to the times, which is why his early 90s team went from "we can kill Iowa State but can't beat those Florida-based teams" to a dynasty.
 
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81usaf92

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That's one of the more interesting issues.

Switzer had substantial advantages over Osborne on that one. Right up until the Lawrence Phillips saga, Osborne was one of "those guys you want your kid to play for." I'm not really sure where I fall on it. Look, I'm usually all for "he blew it, he's done." But Stallings was told that David Palmer NEEDED football by psychologists - or he was going to be even worse. (IIRC, something similar happened with Phillips, where Osborne's take was "look, I can just not play him and keep an eye on him").

If Lawrence Phillips did what he did in 1995 today, he'd likely be moved out of the dorm and out of the school even before the first press conference, particularly given what he did. And Nebraska's well-deserved and earned title would have a bit less of a smudge on it from those of us who lived through it.

Osborne DID inherit the Devaney system - but Perkins inherited the Bryant one, Bengston inherited Lombardi's, Dooley inherited Hallas', Jimmy Johnson even inherited Shula's.......but how many folks not named Tom Osborne or George Seifert kept it going more than through the last recruiting class of the previous guy? So Osborne DOES have to get some credit both for keeping it going AND adjusting to the times, which is why his early 90s team went from "we can kill Iowa State but can't beat those Florida-based teams" to a dynasty.
Im convinced that Osborne going for two in 83 has given him way more credit as a class act than what he actually deserves. The 1997 championship was totally bogus and it was given because “Tom is the last stand up guy”. Osborne was dirty like the rest of them, but people hated Jimmy and Barry more to ever admit it.
 

selmaborntidefan

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I always have a hard time getting in the GOAT question amongst coaches. I think we do however have a consensus with Saban but passed that it’s difficult. I think we can mostly agree on who would probably be in the top 10 but we really have no idea the exact order or who is #10. For instance the Osborne vs Switzer question. You could argue both ways and sound reasonable. Hell you could even make and argument that neither deserve it.
Even the top 10 is debatable on the points of "who invented what."

Does Emory Bellard get higher marks for modernizing the wishbone or lower ones because after a brief high tide at Mississippi State, they were worse than when he arrived six years earlier?

What about Clark Shaugnessy, who invented the T formation?

Is what Bill McCartney did at Colorado actually better than what Switzer did at Oklahoma in light of circumstances and probations?

I mean, yeah, Amos Alonzo Stagg DID win 314 games - in FIFTY-SEVEN SEASONS of coaching, which is 5.5 wins per year (and yes, I know that he had several seasons early on where they only played 7-8 games). His winning percentage was .605, which is six points lower than Dennis Franchione, whom nobody will confuse with anything resembling an all-time great. Of course, there's more to Stagg than "he won 314 games", and he was clearly a decent man who taught a lot of good things, too.
 

B1GTide

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Even the top 10 is debatable on the points of "who invented what."

Does Emory Bellard get higher marks for modernizing the wishbone or lower ones because after a brief high tide at Mississippi State, they were worse than when he arrived six years earlier?

What about Clark Shaugnessy, who invented the T formation?

Is what Bill McCartney did at Colorado actually better than what Switzer did at Oklahoma in light of circumstances and probations?

I mean, yeah, Amos Alonzo Stagg DID win 314 games - in FIFTY-SEVEN SEASONS of coaching, which is 5.5 wins per year (and yes, I know that he had several seasons early on where they only played 7-8 games). His winning percentage was .605, which is six points lower than Dennis Franchione, whom nobody will confuse with anything resembling an all-time great. Of course, there's more to Stagg than "he won 314 games", and he was clearly a decent man who taught a lot of good things, too.
I don't think that, in sports, developing new ideas is nearly as important as the ability to implement them on the field. Coaching isn't about invention - it is about implementation. I also don't think that it is fair to only judge a coach's success on wins and losses, especially when a coach stays in a program that does not lend itself to winning championships for the sake of that program and the kids involved.

Alabama was lucky to have 2 head coaches who did both - won prolifically while also placing a huge emphasis on the development of the players into men who are prepared for life in general, not just on the field. Eddie Robinson comes to mind.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Im convinced that Osborne going for two in 83 has given him way more credit as a class act than what he actually deserves.
This is not an unreasonable conclusion.

Keep this in mind - when that game kicked off, Miami was "roughly a two-touchdown underdog" to the Huskers. Because the idiots who cover the game (90% of them) don't understand the value of a good defense, that game was considered a mere formality on the way to stamping Nebraska as the greatest team ever assembled. Reminder - we were nowhere near as big underdogs to Miami in 1992 as Miami was to Nebraska in 1983. So it was considered a mammoth upset. Never once did the pundits look at the Nebraska schedule and say, 'You know, they should have lost to the only two good teams they played." Penn State was overrated and living off the previous year's title with all those players gone, and UCLA made the Rose Bowl because they lost everything outside the Pac 10 and won almost every conference game. Otherwise, Nebraska faced Okie State and barely beat them and survived Oklahoma when the refs missed a flagrant defensive pass interference that would have at least set up OU for a tie.

So yeah, he got a ton of credit for a decision that if he'd just played for the tie, he wins the championship anyway. Switzer and Woody Hayes both said if they'd been in Osborne's shoes, they would have kicked the PAT.

The 1997 championship was totally bogus and it was given because “Tom is the last stand up guy”. Osborne was dirty like the rest of them, but people hated Jimmy and Barry more to ever admit it.
Well that and the reputation that Nebraska was unstoppable based on 1994 and 1995, yeah.
 
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selmaborntidefan

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I don't think that, in sports, developing new ideas is nearly as important as the ability to implement them on the field. Coaching isn't about invention - it is about implementation. I also don't think that it is fair to only judge a coach's success on wins and losses, especially when a coach stays in a program that does not lend itself to winning championships for the sake of that program and the kids involved.

Alabama was lucky to have 2 head coaches who did both - won prolifically while also placing a huge emphasis on the development of the players into men who are prepared for life in general, not just on the field. Eddie Robinson comes to mind.
I can't disagree with any of this, and you're sorta making the point I'm musing about.

I won't quite go so far as to say it's not about invention, but I would agree with you that "taking something someone else did and doing it better than they ever did" IS the mark of a great coach, absolutely. The New Jersey Devils won THREE Stanley Cups (1995, 2000, and 2003) playing an old-fashioned style of hockey that's been around almost since day one - because they did it better than anyone else.
 
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bamaga

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Yep, I heard that Nick Saban guy may win a national championship or two if he doesnt bolt for greener pastures in a year or two. Wait...this ain’t 2008??
 
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Crimson1967

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My favorite Bama coach from long ago is Xen C. Scott. He was only here four years and had a record of 29-9-3 from 1919-1922. His last season he was hampered by cancer and had to quit at the end of the year and was replaced by Wade.

I like him because it is a sad story and you wonder what might have been. Plus he had a cool name. You don’t see the name Xen very often.