Link: Winningest college football teams over time

[Probius]

Notre Dame was handed a lot of its national championships due to their perceived mythos. Knute Rockne developed the myth of Notre Dame football with the help of sports writers in the 1920's. It's very telling that Knute Rockne is considered a legend in the CFB world, yet Wallace Wade is not known nearly as much. Wade won three national championships just like Rockne, yet he isn't nearly as well known.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

The poll years had built in biases (more sports writers in the mid-west and east) and I am happy we now have the chance to win the title on the field.

I still remember 1966 and 1977!

That was only true until 1960.

The AP changed their poll that year to one AP vote PER STATE, though they excluded Alaska and Hawaii that entered the Union in 1959. It eventually moved to about 60 votes equally distributed.

That's not to say the bias wasn't there still; it was. But it was controlled by then, too.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

Notre Dame was handed a lot of its national championships due to their perceived mythos. Knute Rockne developed the myth of Notre Dame football with the help of sports writers in the 1920's. It's very telling that Knute Rockne is considered a legend in the CFB world, yet Wallace Wade is not known nearly as much. Wade won three national championships just like Rockne, yet he isn't nearly as well known.

Because:
a) Rockne was near Chicago, then the 2nd largest city in the nation
b) there was a much more serious media presence in Chicago than anywhere close to T-Town
c) Notre Dame was the first to really exploit radio with their broadcasts
d) Rockne died, which turned him into a legend

And then they made moving pictures as they were called about the Irish, too.

(Ironically - had the Irish been admitted to the Big Ten, probably none of that happens).

 

[J0eW]

Tie one for the Gipper!

 

[Windsortide]

That is definitely a testament and a visual aid to see what CNS has meant to Alabama. Thank you CNS.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

Notre Dame was handed a lot of its national championships due to their perceived mythos.

There's SOME truth to that, but it's not quite that easy.

They got their first one (1924) after a luncheon with Rockne and some poll writers. Notre Dame was - literally - the first CFB team in history to win a "national championship" after the fact. But everyone needs to remember two things:

1) the selectors at the time were giving away worthless prizes based on what they knew
2) from 1911-1947, there was ONE year (1917 Ga Tech) when there was a "consensus"

Look, I bash Notre Dame with the best of them or at least I did when they were actually more akin to the New York Yankees of football than the joke program they've been for the last 30 years. Notre Dame's early championships were LARGELY due to their proximity to Chicago and the ASSUMPTION (which time has borne out to be largely correct) that the northern and Midwestern football teams were better teams than those on the Coast and in the SEC. Remember - most of those voters at the time not only never SAW (say) 1946 Georgia play, they didn't HEAR them on the radio, either. They DID hear Notre Dame.

That's not to say they haven't benefited from some first-rate insanity. No other team has ever had a Heisman winner on a losing team - only the Irish could ever get away with that one. They got their 1946 title when the voters DROPPED Army after a narrow win over a middling Navy team after the Irish and Army had played to a tie. (Twenty years later, they would conveniently forget this precedent, but I digress).

And it's amusing how many people forget the shadiness of their 1973 title, too.

For those who don't know, tell me if this sounds vaguely familiar.

Ohio State was #1 and had blown every opponent right off the field. Nobody was closer than 24 points at the end of the game. But Ohio State had to go play #4 Michigan in the Big House. In the rain. They tore out to a 10--0 lead, but Michigan made adjustments and largely dominated the second half. The game ended in a 10-10 tie when Michigan missed a game-winning FG attempt from 44 yards was no good. Now bear this in mind - Archie Griffin tore up Michigan in that game, but he hurt a leg near halftime and wasn't so good in the second half. So what happened?

Let's see.

1) Ohio State and Michigan were both undefeated - just like 1966.
2) Ohio State was #1 - just like 1966.
3) Ohio State played on the road and saw one of their best players get hurt - just like 1966.

But let's add:
1) Ohio State fell in the poll to number 4, Alabama moved up to #1.
2) Notre Dame beat 6-3 AFA and 5-5 Miami.....and jumped ahead of Ohio State in the poll.
3) Ohio State - unlike 1966 - actually played in a bowl game and they tore a new one into USC, 42-21, the same USC that Notre Dame had only beaten by nine points AT HOME

Using Ara Parseghian's 1966 logic, Ohio Statte should never have dropped from #1 at all.

(Btw - there was a separate controversy when Ohio St prevailed over Michigan in a vote of Big Ten folks as to who was going to Pasadena that year- but so what? 1966 Ara told all of us that you didn't have to play a bowl game, it just mattered that if you were #1 and DID NOT LOSE, you kept your ranking).

The immediate objection? "But there were polls after the bowls in 1973 and there weren't in 1966."

True. But not only did Ohio St NOT lose and shouldn't have dropped, they played ONE OF THE SAME TEAMS Notre Dame did and blew them out of the water.

Some of you who were already mad about the Irish 1973 title are probably really angry right now if you didn't know this.

 

[STONECOLDSABAN]

There's SOME truth to that, but it's not quite that easy.

They got their first one (1924) after a luncheon with Rockne and some poll writers. Notre Dame was - literally - the first CFB team in history to win a "national championship" after the fact. But everyone needs to remember two things:

1) the selectors at the time were giving away worthless prizes based on what they knew
2) from 1911-1947, there was ONE year (1917 Ga Tech) when there was a "consensus"

Look, I bash Notre Dame with the best of them or at least I did when they were actually more akin to the New York Yankees of football than the joke program they've been for the last 30 years. Notre Dame's early championships were LARGELY due to their proximity to Chicago and the ASSUMPTION (which time has borne out to be largely correct) that the northern and Midwestern football teams were better teams than those on the Coast and in the SEC. Remember - most of those voters at the time not only never SAW (say) 1946 Georgia play, they didn't HEAR them on the radio, either. They DID hear Notre Dame.

That's not to say they haven't benefited from some first-rate insanity. No other team has ever had a Heisman winner on a losing team - only the Irish could ever get away with that one. They got their 1946 title when the voters DROPPED Army after a narrow win over a middling Navy team after the Irish and Army had played to a tie. (Twenty years later, they would conveniently forget this precedent, but I digress).

And it's amusing how many people forget the shadiness of their 1973 title, too.

For those who don't know, tell me if this sounds vaguely familiar.

Ohio State was #1 and had blown every opponent right off the field. Nobody was closer than 24 points at the end of the game. But Ohio State had to go play #4 Michigan in the Big House. In the rain. They tore out to a 10--0 lead, but Michigan made adjustments and largely dominated the second half. The game ended in a 10-10 tie when Michigan missed a game-winning FG attempt from 44 yards was no good. Now bear this in mind - Archie Griffin tore up Michigan in that game, but he hurt a leg near halftime and wasn't so good in the second half. So what happened?

Let's see.

1) Ohio State and Michigan were both undefeated - just like 1966.
2) Ohio State was #1 - just like 1966.
3) Ohio State played on the road and saw one of their best players get hurt - just like 1966.

But let's add:
1) Ohio State fell in the poll to number 4, Alabama moved up to #1.
2) Notre Dame beat 6-3 AFA and 5-5 Miami.....and jumped ahead of Ohio State in the poll.
3) Ohio State - unlike 1966 - actually played in a bowl game and they tore a new one into USC, 42-21, the same USC that Notre Dame had only beaten by nine points AT HOME

Using Ara Parseghian's 1966 logic, Ohio Statte should never have dropped from #1 at all.

(Btw - there was a separate controversy when Ohio St prevailed over Michigan in a vote of Big Ten folks as to who was going to Pasadena that year- but so what? 1966 Ara told all of us that you didn't have to play a bowl game, it just mattered that if you were #1 and DID NOT LOSE, you kept your ranking).

The immediate objection? "But there were polls after the bowls in 1973 and there weren't in 1966."

True. But not only did Ohio St NOT lose and shouldn't have dropped, they played ONE OF THE SAME TEAMS Notre Dame did and blew them out of the water.

Some of you who were already mad about the Irish 1973 title are probably really angry right now if you didn't know this.

This may be getting off topic and maybe I should bump your old thread where you went through all the champions. But I think the polls created such a mess that it's hard to go back and go "well this title counted, and this title didn't" (not saying that's what you are doing selma). Which is what a lot of fans love to do about Alabama. They love to go "well 1973 didn't count cause upi awarded them before the bowl game" and then turn around and go "well 1978 USC was the UPI champion and they beat Bama" Either UPI counts, or it doesn't. Also, I love when people bring up love to bring up Bama losing bowl games but leave out Notre dame not even playing it bowl games for years. If it counts against a team to lose a bowl game. Then it should count against teams to not even play in a bowl game.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

This may be getting off topic and maybe I should bump your old thread where you went through all the champions. But I think the polls created such a mess that it's hard to go back and go "well this title counted, and this title didn't" (not saying that's what you are doing selma). Which is what a lot of fans love to do about Alabama. They love to go "well 1973 didn't count cause upi awarded them before the bowl game" and then turn around and go "well 1978 USC was the UPI champion and they beat Bama" Either UPI counts, or it doesn't. Also, I love when people bring up love to bring up Bama losing bowl games but leave out Notre dame not even playing it bowl games for years. If it counts against a team to lose a bowl game. Then it should count against teams to not even play in a bowl game.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying Notre Dame doesn't have a 1973 title (just as we do). I'm saying it was laughably two-faced of Ara Parseghian to have accepted such a title in the first place given "The Rules of Ara" in polling is all.

I concur with pretty much all of what you're saying, which is part of why I give Alabama fans here a way to defend their titles without being hypocrites. Well - except 1941 - which should never have been claimed in the first place.

Thing is, the website that whine about our national titles don't ever apply that argument consistently.

"Alabama didn't even win their conference (2011, 2017)."
Neither did Minnesota in 1936 or any indepdendent.

"Alabama lost to Texas and shouldn't have won in 64 because bowl games!"
The same thing happened in 1950, 1951, and 1953 - and not one damn word about those.

"Alabama lost on the field to Notre Dame in 1973!"
Yes, and the UPI title JUST LIKE ALL NATIONAL TITLES PRIOR TO 1965 were awarded BEFORE the game, too.

"Alabama shouldn't count 1978 because USC beat them head-to-head!"
And Notre Dame beat FSU the same way in 1993 and got hosed.
And Miami beat FSU in 2000 and didn't make the BCS title game.
And Texas beat Oklahoma in 2008 and didn't make the BCS title game.
And Army and Notre Dame tied in 1946 and Army dropped and Notre Dame rose.

Most of the issues are "I hate Alabama, therefore, these titles don't count"

They don't give a damn about titles, they give a damn about bringing Alabama lower in their own minds.

 

[Diogenes]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying Notre Dame doesn't have a 1973 title (just as we do). I'm saying it was laughably two-faced of Ara Parseghian to have accepted such a title in the first place given "The Rules of Ara" in polling is all.

I concur with pretty much all of what you're saying, which is part of why I give Alabama fans here a way to defend their titles without being hypocrites. Well - except 1941 - which should never have been claimed in the first place.

Thing is, the website that whine about our national titles don't ever apply that argument consistently.

"Alabama didn't even win their conference (2011, 2017)."
Neither did Minnesota in 1936 or any indepdendent.

"Alabama lost to Texas and shouldn't have won in 64 because bowl games!"
The same thing happened in 1950, 1951, and 1953 - and not one damn word about those.

"Alabama lost on the field to Notre Dame in 1973!"
Yes, and the UPI title JUST LIKE ALL NATIONAL TITLES PRIOR TO 1965 were awarded BEFORE the game, too.

"Alabama shouldn't count 1978 because USC beat them head-to-head!"
And Notre Dame beat FSU the same way in 1993 and got hosed.
And Miami beat FSU in 2000 and didn't make the BCS title game.
And Texas beat Oklahoma in 2008 and didn't make the BCS title game.
And Army and Notre Dame tied in 1946 and Army dropped and Notre Dame rose.

Most of the issues are "I hate Alabama, therefore, these titles don't count"

They don't give a damn about titles, they give a damn about bringing Alabama lower in their own minds.

I agree completely!

However, the polls still owe Alabama a title in 1966 and 1977. That would’ve been three in a row in each instance.

 

[DzynKingRTR]

I agree completely!

However, the polls still owe Alabama a title in 1966 and 1977. That would’ve been three in a roll each instance.

I am no conspiracy guy, but the whole thing about 66 seems like they did not want to have a southern team win 3 in a row.

 

[Padreruf]

I am no conspiracy guy, but the whole thing about 66 seems like they did not want to have a southern team win 3 in a row.

Due to the racial/cultural situation in our country there is no way the powers that be could do that. There was a lot of bias against the Southern teams...I lived in Portland, Oregon at the time and saw it first hand.

 

[GP for Bama]

In Bryant's era... Ohio State, Notre Dame, Oklahoma, USC and Michigan had to lose before Bama would be ranked #1.

 

[BamaFlum]

That’s a great graphic about the dominance of Bama football.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

nt

In Bryant's era... Ohio State, Notre Dame, Oklahoma, USC and Michigan had to lose before Bama would be ranked #1.

If that's true then why was Alabama #1 going into the 1973 Sugar Bowl?

 

[Padreruf]

nt


If that's true then why was Alabama #1 going into the 1973 Sugar Bowl?

That was after we had AA players...in 65-68 all the players were white.

 

[TD10]

In Bryant's era... Ohio State, Notre Dame, Oklahoma, USC and Michigan had to lose before Bama would be ranked #1.

I totally agree. In 1973 Ohio State had to tie Michigan for us to be #1. If not Ohio State, Oklahoma probably would have been #1 at the end of the year if they had not tied USC. Barry Switzer claimed that they would have won the nat'l title if they had not missed an easy 4th qtr FG against USC. Ohio State and Oklahoma were the biggest threats to Bama that year. Their ties were necessary for Bama's UPI poll. Notre Dame had been down in 1971 and 1972 and with the AP poll after the bowls it did not seem to matter for Notre Dame's chances if Bama was #1.

Regarding our 6 national titles in the 60s and 70s, in each year someone had to lose or tie for us to win our nat'l title. These were often miraculous.

1961 little TCU (3-5-2) tied Ohio State (8-0-1) and beat Texas (10-1) who was #1 in Austin 7-6 late in the year. Darrell Royal never got over that one. Ohio State still won a share of the title even with the tie. Thank heavens for the Horned Frogs.

1964 Notre Dame was undefeated and #1 going into their last game vs USC in the LA Coliseum. This was Ara's first year and he turned them around right away and they were media's darlings. They led 17-0 at halftime, but inexplicably USC dramatically came back in the 2nd Half to win 20-17. The polls were at the end of the regular season and Bama won.

1965 Bama won on one of the great New Year's Days in college football history. The AP poll changed to after the bowls that very year. Michigan State #1, Arkansas #2, and Nebraska #3 were each 10-0. Bama was 8-1-1 at #4. Michigan State (Bubba Smith and that bunch) had a rematch with UCLA in the Rose Bowl that they had beaten in the season opener. UCLA upset them 14-12. Earlier in the day Arkansas was upset by a 3-loss LSU in the Cotton Bowl. This set the stage for Nebraska and Bama to play that night in the Orange Bowl for the nat'l title. Bama manhandled them and moved from #4 to #1.

1973 Ohio State was firmly entrenched at #1 going into their final game at undefeated Michigan. The Buckeyes were leading 10-0 late in the 3rd qtr, but Ohio State was stopped on 4th down deep in Michigan territory. The momentum changed and the Wolverines scored 10 points in the 4th qtr for a 10-10 tie. Bama beat undefeated LSU on Thanksgiving night to win the UPI poll which had temporarily reverted back to after the regular season. It immediately went back to after the bowls in 1974 and stayed that way.

1978 Oklahoma was undefeated and #1 late in the year going into their game vs once-beaten Nebraska (that loss was to Bama 20-3 at Legion Field; Nebraska never made it inside the Bama 30 the entire game). Billy Sims fumbled on the Husker 3-yd line late in the 4th qtr trailing 17-14. Nebraska won and the polls vaulted them ahead of Bama even though they had lost head-to-head. It appeared that Penn State (now #1) and Nebraska were going to play for the nat'l title in the Orange Bowl. Fortunately for Bama Nebraska had one final regular season game at home vs Missouri (Bama had beaten them at Columbia 38-20 earlier). Missouri were the giant killers of the 1970s and pulled a major upset at Lincoln 35-31. That team had Kellen Winslow and several future NFL RBs. Joe Paterno waited to pick the highest ranked opponent to ensure a nat'l title game. Three of his previous undefeated teams had failed to win the nat'l title. He was taking no chances. The Nebraska loss afforded Bama the chance to play Penn State for the nat'l title. Even with the 14-7 win in the Sugar Bowl in one of the greatest games in college football history, USC passed Bama in the UPI poll due to some shenanigans with certain coaches votes. They had defeated Michigan 17-10 in the Rose Bowl. Yes they had beaten Bama early in the year but had lost decisively to Arizona State the following week and remained behind Bama in the polls the remainder of the regular season. Charles White had famously and clearly fumbled on the 2-yd line in the Rose Bowl and the pollsters saw it, so USC did not deserve a share of the title.

1979 USC was the overwhelming favorite going into the next year and remained #1 until the midseason and another miracle for Bama. At home vs Stanford USC led 21-0 at the half. Stanford in those days had a penchant for the dramatic upset as Missouri did. They stormed back in the 2nd half to tie USC 21-21. Bama became #1 in the AP poll until the final regular season poll when Ohio State jumped from #3 to #1. Ohio State had a mere 1 1/2 pts more in this poll even though Bama had a 29-16 lead in first-place votes. More voting shenanigans. Clearly the national media was trying to set up a Rose Bowl for the nat'l title. Bama won the Sugar Bowl and fortunately USC edged Ohio State 17-16 in the Rose Bowl. Bama (12-0) squeaked by USC (11-0-1) for the nat'l title.

My point in all this is that Alabama had to have these near miraculous happenings in the 1960s and 1970s to win a single national championship. Without the aforementioned happenings the national champions would have been:

1961 Ohio State or Texas
1964 Notre Dame
1965 Michigan State or Arkansas
1973 Ohio State or Oklahoma
1978 Nebraska or Oklahoma (or Penn State)
1979 USC or Ohio State

If Notre Dame (for the sake of argument - I know Notre Dame was not in the SEC) had played our exact same schedule with the same exact results but been Notre Dame (their gold helmets, uniforms, etc) not Alabama, and without the aforementioned near miraculous happenings, I believe they would have won or likely won national championships in 1961, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1978 and 1979 whereas Bama would have had none. That's Notre Dame as many as nine, Bama zero with the same results.

The Notre Dame's and USC's did not need the miracles that Bama did due to the many biases of those days. I miss the college football of that era, but not the polls. The system for selecting a national champion today is much better.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

That was after we had AA players...in 65-68 all the players were white.

So if it's a Civil Rights thing then why did Notre Dame (with all of ONE black player) beat out Michigan State, the most fully integrated team in the USA?

This is why I've never bought the conspiracy theory - because it's more than one.

 

[Padreruf]

So if it's a Civil Rights thing then why did Notre Dame (with all of ONE black player) beat out Michigan State, the most fully integrated team in the USA?

This is why I've never bought the conspiracy theory - because it's more than one.

Perception always beats reality...except when arguing with you!! LOl.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

It really demonstrates an enormous bias against Alabama. It's how the 1992 season went as well. They had to beat Miami before most people would even consider the possibility that Alabama was better. Now, I'm not saying it was unfair Miami was ranked ahead, but it seems like it always went that way, kind of like how until Saban Alabama has zero Heisman winners despite some amazing football players.

This is 100% true.

There was one night I was watching ESPN, and they revealed that Corky Simpson was the voter who was voting us #1. Simpson simply said Alabama was the best team and ESPN pointed out that while Alabama was undefeated, so were seven other teams that they listed - and included Boston College and some unranked them - the implication being "Alabama doesn't belong with Miami and Washington, they have more in common with Boston College."