Woody Hayes and 5 national championships

[GP for Bama]

Back in the 60's and 70's Ohio State just had to go undefeated against a fairly weak Big Ten and win the Rose Bowl and they would be ranked #1. Bama had to win and usually wait on Ohio State, Michigan, USC to lose before being ranked #1. There was definitely a bias in favor of northern teams and USC from the 50's thru the 70's. That is why Bama in '66 and '77, and a couple of Ole Miss and Tennessee teams didn't win "Poll" national championships.

Back to the question... Woody was on the tail end of his career. I doubt he was going to win another one.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

This lead me to think about his run as coach and his five national championships. The last one was in 1970. He had an 8 year drought coming into this game. Do you think if he hadn't gotten fired, would he/ could he have pulled off another before he retired.

I honestly don't think he would have, but it's impossible to say for certain. He was an unhealthy coach whose diabetes had already been a contributor to some of his emotional outbursts, and he was undone by a few things he wasn't going to be able to stop:

1) teams were really starting to feel the pinch of the altered 1976 scholarship rules that limited scholarships and players and evened it out a tad bit more; he didn't have near the advantage he had had previously (not knocking him, it was no different than us with Bryant)

2) Hayes had just completed his third straight season with records that had two losses and a tie, three losses, four losses and a tie. He DID have the very excellent Art Schlichster coming on, and the 1979 team DID go undefeated in the regular season.

The question becomes......did the Buckeyes do well BECAUSE Hayes's way of doing things was changed by Earle Bruce that first year? Or would Hayes have cashed in a championship the Buckeyes nearly won?

I don't think any of us can answer that beyond the level of, "Possibly but not necessarily probably."

Let me add something else........it's not like Hayes didn't come damn close. In 1973, it was a tie with Michigan (that wouldn't happen today) that opened the door for us to win the UPI title. And in 1975, Ohio State was #1 in the nation but lost the Rose Bowl to a #11 UCLA Bruins team the Bucks had blown out on the road, 41-20, just a few months earlier. It's not like he had for sure careened off a cliff.

Now as far as Woody's conference......well, okay, you have a bit of a point but.....not any more so than the fact Coach Bryant was laying the wood to outgunned teams, either.

From 1968-1982, either Ohio State or Michigan won at least a share of the Big 10 title.
From 1964-1982, either Alabama or Georgia won at least a share of the title all but 3 times (2 by Tennessee, one by LSU).
From 1961-1988, either Oklahoma or Nebraska won at least a share of the Big 8 every single year.
From 1959-1977, either Arkansas or Texas won at least a share of the SWC title all but twice.
From 1959-1989, either USC or UCLA won at least a share of the PCC/8/10 titles all but six times - and they would have won few others but were on probation.

What I'm saying is - let's not diminish Hayes's accomplishments as though he was some precursor to the trash bags at UCF. He diminished himself enough in his final act as coach that sadly clouded the good that he accomplished on the field.

As far as the charge of bias, I think that's actually easy to substantiate. That being said - I would point out A LOT of it comes from the fact that a bunch of the press people are grads of the prestigious Northwestern journalism school - and like the SEC riff-raff, they latch onto the good teams, especially back in the 70s when Northwestern began what was then a record streak for futility.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm inclined to believe not, but it's nothing more than a belief.

 

[Tider n LA]

Woody's national championships were 54, 57, 61, 68 and 70. No doubt many teams also shared those titles but I think 3 are very legit. I remember a team from Alabama winning in 1961 so I don't think that was one of them.

 

[B1GTide]

Woody's national championships were 54, 57, 61, 68 and 70. No doubt many teams also shared those titles but I think 3 are very legit. I remember a team from Alabama winning in 1961 so I don't think that was one of them.

1961 was an FWII championship, so legit, just not as legit as Alabama's that year. It was a different world back then.

 

[BamaInBham]

Woody's national championships were 54, 57, 61, 68 and 70. No doubt many teams also shared those titles but I think 3 are very legit. I remember a team from Alabama winning in 1961 so I don't think that was one of them.

The 61 and 70 claims, IMO, should not be accepted. Not that his team may not have been the best, but you have to cut off the selectors at some point. Alabama has NC selectors in 30 or 31 seasons, several of which are ridiculous, meaning that Bryant would have a few more than 6, including 66 & 77. So, I just accept the wire service claims, thus rejecting 1941 and continuing to ignore 45, 66 and 77 and OSU's 61 Nd 70. So, Hayes only has 3 using that criteria. (Yes, I realize that is just one man's opinion.)

But whatever, Hayes was a great coach and though I don't know any of the specifics of the claims of misbehavior against him (which may transcend eras), that was a different time and world. I'm happy to "be understanding" of many things, not all, but many. And his altruistic behavior post-Clemson from my limited understanding was a continuation of his past, but another reason it increased was simply because he had more time. OSU guys feel free to correct .

 

[selmaborntidefan]

Btw - just because this is how my brain works.....Hayes threw his career ending punch 42 years ago TONIGHT (again, just by coincidence with us talking about this).

 

[selmaborntidefan]

BTW - for those who weren't around when Hayes slugged Charlie Baumann (and then tried to choke his own player for good measure), the wire stories at the time had Lou Holtz as the projected possible next coach of Ohio State

 

[selmaborntidefan]

I won't claim to have any special insight here, and I was actually traveling the day the incident with Baumann happened. But it WAS all over the sports world the next day on NFL Today and the other programs we had in that pre-ESPN world. My goodness, my college football ignorant mother knew who Woody Hayes was, and she was a Southern girl.

A few of the articles - even from Ohio - suggest that Hayes MIGHT have already been on the chopping block to be fired after the Gator Bowl, win or lose. That "rumor" was out there based on his rapidly declining record and the fact he was 65 years old, they actually had Lou Holtz in mind - regardless of when Hayes retired/was fired - as his successor (for those who don't know, Holtz was an assistant on the 1968 national champions and got his first coaching gig the next year at William and Mary). Before you say, "That can't be true," you have to remember that National Signing Day wasn't what it is now. Coaches were routinely fired AFTER bowl games back then rather than the day after the season ended.

There are other conflicting details as well, and I was aware of some of these. Supposedly, the Ohio State AD (Hugh Hindman) gave Hayes the option of resignation or being canned. According to Hindman, Woody said that he wasn't going to make it easy for them. But right after he was fired, Hayes suddenly began insisting he had resigned. It should also be noted for the record that Hayes was ALREADY under Big Ten "probation" for having punched at a cameraman during a Rose Bowl a few years earlier.

Also, Charlie Baumann, the Clemson player who intercepted the ball, told two different stories right after the game, probably because he realized the enormity of what had happened. First he admitted under questioning Hayes had hit him and then suddenly changed his tune to cover for Hayes with a sort of, "Well I know, but I'm not saying." It was also alleged that Baumann taunted Hayes with the interception, but: 1) even if he did, so what; 2) it hardly looks like there was time for any taunting before Woody unloads; 3) if he did taunt him, it was so minor it doesn't show up; and 4) Woody went after his own player as well.

That was my first year as a sports fan watching a lot of games, and it was just so shocking to me that that happened. For many years, all I knew was Woody Hayes as "that guy who hit the player and got fired." Hayes died my senior year of high school, and it was on the front page of my local Mississippi paper. My first thought? "Yeah, that was the Ohio State coach who punched the kid who intercepted his QB." As I've gotten older and learned more about him, though, it goes back to that horrible reality of how an entire life of success in any field can be undone - literally - in seconds. My local paper had a lot of the good stuff that B1G was talking about, but it's like former Senator Tom Eagleton - all his obituaries mentioned him as "the VP selection that had to resign due to mental illness." Scott Norwood, sadly, will get the same treatment, although what neither of those guys did compares in poor behavior to Hayes.


Also for those who don't know - when Hayes was fired, he was FOURTH on the all-time list in victories and second among active coaches behind.......you know who.

 

[rtrbama1]

The year after he was fired, Ohio State went 11-0 under Earle Bruce and were #1 in the AP poll before losing by one point to USC in the Rose Bowl.

Yes, true. That was a very good team and that was a great game in the Rose Bowl. I think he could have coached another 5 years. I was watching the Gator Bowl when he threw the punch. I was nine and it was a Friday night--I was laying in bed, half-asleep, watching on the B&W TV and trying to stay awake til the end of the game. He threw the punch, but the ABC announcers didn't mention it specifically and I was thinking "Did he do what I thought he did or was I dreaming?" Then I woke up the next morning and heard he had been fired.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

Yes, true. That was a very good team and that was a great game in the Rose Bowl. I think he could have coached another 5 years. I was watching the Gator Bowl when he threw the punch. I was nine and it was a Friday night--I was lying in bed, half-asleep, watching on the B&W TV and trying to stay awake til the end of the game. He threw the punch, but the ABC announcers didn't mention it specifically and I was thinking "Did he do what I thought he did or was I dreaming?" Then I woke up the next morning and heard he had been fired.

There's an interesting story behind what happened there - and it haunted Keith Jackson so much, several folks had the gall to mention it in the man's tribute columns a few years ago when he died.

Jackson's broadcast partner back then (and in the game) was Ara "Tie One for the Gipper" Parseghian. ABC opted - to their eternal regret - to NOT set up a feed of the broadcast going back into the booth. So instead of seeing any kind of replay, Jackson and Parseghian were watching DIRECTLY down on the field - and neither one saw it, which is hardly surprising given where it happened. His broadcast truck was telling Jackson to comment upon the punch Hayes threw, and Jackson refused to do it. Jim Spence, the sports division's executive VP, saw it on TV in his hotel room and called the truck and told the guy down there - under threat of orders, no less - to say something about the punch.

Jackson - a former Marine - wasn't a guy to be intimidated plus a well-established reputation for pulling no punches on what he saw in a game.....said he wasn't going to comment upon something he had not actually seen with his own two eyes, especially something like that. Jackson was trashed incessantly in the print media for being a Woody Hayes stooge who was trying to cover up what had happened - a truly laughable notion given Hayes and Jackson didn't really care that much for each other. But Keith stood his ground - he didn't see it, and he wasn't going to say anything about it. (Showing they learned absolutely nothing from this mistake, ABC actually missed Al Unser Jr going across the finish line to win the 1992 Indy 500 some 13 years later - because they were hung up on an interview).

 

[rtrbama1]

There's an interesting story behind what happened there - and it haunted Keith Jackson so much, several folks had the gall to mention it in the man's tribute columns a few years ago when he died.

Jackson's broadcast partner back then (and in the game) was Ara "Tie One for the Gipper" Parseghian. ABC opted - to their eternal regret - to NOT set up a feed of the broadcast going back into the booth. So instead of seeing any kind of replay, Jackson and Parseghian were watching DIRECTLY down on the field - and neither one saw it, which is hardly surprising given where it happened. His broadcast truck was telling Jackson to comment upon the punch Hayes threw, and Jackson refused to do it. Jim Spence, the sports division's executive VP, saw it on TV in his hotel room and called the truck and told the guy down there - under threat of orders, no less - to say something about the punch.

Jackson - a former Marine - wasn't a guy to be intimidated plus a well-established reputation for pulling no punches on what he saw in a game.....said he wasn't going to comment upon something he had not actually seen with his own two eyes, especially something like that. Jackson was trashed incessantly in the print media for being a Woody Hayes stooge who was trying to cover up what had happened - a truly laughable notion given Hayes and Jackson didn't really care that much for each other. But Keith stood his ground - he didn't see it, and he wasn't going to say anything about it. (Showing they learned absolutely nothing from this mistake, ABC actually missed Al Unser Jr going across the finish line to win the 1992 Indy 500 some 13 years later - because they were hung up on an interview).

Wow, that is very interesting. Thank you. I knew they were heavily criticized for not commenting on it, but did not know the details.

 

[GrayTide]

Keith Jackson was the GOAT and I would stand by his stance on the Hayes punch. The rest of the media can suck it.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

Keith Jackson was the GOAT and I would stand by his stance on the Hayes punch. The rest of the media can suck it.

Keith Jackson could tell me the sun was rising in the West and I’d look. He was absolutely right. A SMART journalist doesn’t comment on hearsay. But he did say when he saw it for the first time in his hotel room, he about doubled over in agony of what had happened plus the fact he was being ripped for something that wasn’t his fault.

 

[4Q Basket Case]

Btw - just because this is how my brain works.....Hayes threw his career ending punch 42 years ago TONIGHT (again, just by coincidence with us talking about this).

Geez.....42 years! I remember watching that game, on the one TV in the house....a 26-inch Philco Color — a pretty snazzy setup in 1978.

When Charlie Bauman went out-of-bounds, and Hayes punched him, all of us were dumbstruck...as in, did we really see that? We were yelling at the TV for a replay.

The network and announcers covered for Hayes, saying they ”couldn’t see what happened,” and “don’t have the tape.” Garbage. They knew how damning the tape was, and just didn’t want to embarrass a coach of Hayes’ stature that way.

But, as others have said, it was a different day and time regarding winning coaches’ personal foibles.

To answer the OP question, I think Hayes would have continued to be a winning coach. But not at the NC level. As for many, the game had passed his philosophy by, and to that point, he had given no indication of being able to adapt.

Could he have changed at that point in his life? Possible. But not likely.

I still love the quote from his wife of well over 50 years.....when asked if she’d ever considered divorce from the mercurial Hayes, she said, “Divorce? No. Never. Murder?....Now, that’s a different story.”

 

[Al A Bama]

Woody Hayes kind of football: 3.5 rushing yards each play and a cloud of dust or snow.

 

[OSUTideFan]

Woody Hayes kind of football: 3.5 rushing yards each play and a cloud of dust or snow.

It was the olden days. Football has pretty much turned into basketball since then.