It takes two. No question about Saban's being the GOAT. But he did it at a university that "enables" a coach to be his best. I suppose it could be asked also about Coach Bryant. Both Saban and Bryant coached at other places, but both reached their apex at Alabama. I would like to think that the "chemistry" between the two coaches and the University of Alabama made the difference.
Would Saban be GOAT if anywhere but Alabama?
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While I do not dispute the content of your post, my answer to your question in the thread title is yes. I am NOT saying that he could have gone anywhere and won all of these titles, but I am pretty sure that he could have won consistently at many other schools. He is just that good.
For instance, I think that CNS would be doing much better at Georgia than Kirby currently is. Same applies to Texas A&M and every other location, including Clemson. Also, even Orgeron, who doesnt belong in a conversation with Saban, was able to win a title at LSU. If he is capable, that tells me that CNS would have won a bunch of them.
I agree with you 100% that Alabama is to be praised for giving CNS total control. That made the difference and everybody benefited from this, to include us fans.
ROLL TIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I shudder to think how it could have been if he had stayed at LSU. Thanks be to the FB powers that enabled CNS to come to Bama! ROLL TIDE!
Given that LSU has won two national championships since he left (and got to a third one as #1 - Tide fans need to be thanking God/karma/evolution/whatever) that he left there.
Because he'd likely have won more titles there given:
a) the state is larger
b) he doesn't have an Auburn with whom to compete with recruits.
It's true, however, that he wouldn't be able to win six titles at, say, Michigan State. The number of programs where that could happen is incredibly small, and it's a fair question to ask when analyzing coaches.
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That`s my opinion in spades. He would have ben the most powerful man in Louisiana, as nuts as those folks are about LSU football. Come to think of it, I`m not certain at all that he`s not the most powerful man in Alabama right this moment!
I would say he’s the most powerful man in AL, GA, TN, and MS!
I also believe that there could be a couple of other coaches that could have been a success at BAMA. Maybe Urban Meyer? Or, Steve Spurrier? There was talk about Spurrier taking the job before Saban accepted.
I still do not believe that they would have had the Saban success though. I firmly believe that Saban / Bama is a perfect match for each other.
But, of course LSU would have been a success with Saban. Already ran that trial as a success. But, I also believe that OSU, Florida, USC, or even Georgia would be great right now if Saban had went there.
I still do not believe that they would have had the Saban success though. I firmly believe that Saban / Bama is a perfect match for each other.
But, of course LSU would have been a success with Saban. Already ran that trial as a success. But, I also believe that OSU, Florida, USC, or even Georgia would be great right now if Saban had went there.
Ask yourself this question: could Saban win six national titles in 12 seasons at Auburn?
(I think that question is a whole lot tougher to answer than most people realize. Remember - in the last 12 seasons at Auburn DURING ALABAMA'S RUN, Auburn has won a title, came within 12 seconds of winning a second one, and came within one game of qualifying for a tournament to play for the third one).
I'm not totally certain he'd win six there - but I'm also not convinced that he couldn't do it, either.
If the riff-raff they've had can win what they've won........and let's say Saban took over at Auburn starting in 2000, when he went to LSU and then Alabama was crippled for so long........(remember - Tubs went unbeaten in 04 as well, which would get a playoff spot nowadays).
(I think that question is a whole lot tougher to answer than most people realize. Remember - in the last 12 seasons at Auburn DURING ALABAMA'S RUN, Auburn has won a title, came within 12 seconds of winning a second one, and came within one game of qualifying for a tournament to play for the third one).
I'm not totally certain he'd win six there - but I'm also not convinced that he couldn't do it, either.
If the riff-raff they've had can win what they've won........and let's say Saban took over at Auburn starting in 2000, when he went to LSU and then Alabama was crippled for so long........(remember - Tubs went unbeaten in 04 as well, which would get a playoff spot nowadays).
Interesting question. I personally think that in large measure CNS` success at the barn would have revolved around a factor that I believe has been instrumental to his success here. The degree to which he is allowed to run his program without interference from outside influences. You`ll never get me to believe that Mal Moore didn`t say something to him to the effect of, " It`s your baby. You rock it. Don`t worry about alumni and booster interference."
I'd like to "like" this, but I don't like this...
I think the fact that Bryant and Saban both had by far their biggest success at the same school is strong evidence that there is something about the culture around U of A football that facilitated that success. In the right hands this program produces dynasties like no other. In the wrong hand it produces a string of 7-6, 6-7 seasons and probation.
There are probably 15 - 20 schools he could have duplicated this run at. As storied of a program as we are, we weren't in very good shape when he took over, in terms of talent and facilities.
Let's go a little wider shall we? Let's stretch it out and ask it like this:
"Which programs could Saban win six in a CAREER of 25 years with if he was there and never left?"
Reasonable, right? That's the length of Bryant's Alabama career and unlike Saban, he didn't arrive here with a title already in the trophy case. There are, of course, some immediate prospects where he could do this:
Alabama (obviously)
Ohio State
Oklahoma
USC
LSU
Texas (if he could get the boosters out of the way)
Auburn (yes - I think it's at least POSSIBLE he could win six in 25 years at Auburn; debatable, yes)
Penn State
Florida State
Florida (they've won 3 in the last 25 years, and he's better than the guys who won them)
I'm sure since I'm just spit balling here, there's maybe 3-4 other places he could win six in 25 years. Clemson maybe (let's see how it works when they actually have a bit of competition and people decide Venables isn't the second coming of Buddy Ryan).
One case I think is interesting? Georgia.
SHOULD he be able to do so? Well, in the last 25 years, Georgia has come VERY close once (2017), within a game three other times (2002, 2007, 2012). With Saban there, UGA likely wins at least two titles (17 and 12); given his documented problems with Auburn (similar to UGA's with Florida), it's debatable whether he could have won in 2002 or 2007 (along with the BCS rules).
OTOH......once you win one, you get a bit of a boost in the voters' eyes, too.
So Georgia (as always) is right there with Auburn.
Georgia 839-427-54 (.656)
Auburn 782-450-47 (.630)
Georgia leads series 61-56-8, and that entire gap is because UGA went 10-1 from 1940 through 1952 (Shug Jordan arrived in 1951). Given Georgia as a state has always been quite a bit larger than Alabama - and despite (yes) having some good Bobby Dodd Tech teams, UGA never had the in-state competition that Auburn does.......this is a toss-up.
UGA fans would have you believe that if Alabama and UGA had played every year in the 60s and 70s, Dooley would have more titles and Bryant fewer. But the cold, hard reality is that it might actually be a more appropriate insult to refer to the Dawgs as "East Auburn" rather than Auburn as "West GA." There's simply not much difference - both are 8-4 programs on average over the long haul.
Now.....I have no personal knowledge of the so-called "Georgia boosters." It seems to me the stench of failure, of monumental collapse hangs over the entire state of Georgia pretty much all the time. They were settled as a farming state (Auburn reference maybe?) and invaded by Spain, wound up under the ownership of the Brits and gained their independence.
It was the last war in which Georgia was on the winning side.
Sherman's march, Gone With the Wind commemorating it, the Falcons kicker whiffing the first kickoff (missing the ball) in franchise history, the first 1,000-yard rusher getting tackled for a loss on the next play that left him below 1,000 yards (this actually happened two straight years - way to go, Georgia). The Braves being awful and then winning ONE World Series, the Falcons blowing the 28-3 lead, the Dawgs blowing the 13-0 lead to a guy who had never played a meaningful snap.
Hell, even New Coke (one of the biggest failures in history) had its roots in Atlanta.
Georgia is basically Auburn.......so.......if I think Saban could MAYBE win six there, do I think he could at UGA?
Maybe.......but it's some sort of reverse Auburn luck that hangs over that state, too. I love the state, folks, so don't take it personal. But to paraphrase Churchill - "never have so few blown so much so often."
"Which programs could Saban win six in a CAREER of 25 years with if he was there and never left?"
Reasonable, right? That's the length of Bryant's Alabama career and unlike Saban, he didn't arrive here with a title already in the trophy case. There are, of course, some immediate prospects where he could do this:
Alabama (obviously)
Ohio State
Oklahoma
USC
LSU
Texas (if he could get the boosters out of the way)
Auburn (yes - I think it's at least POSSIBLE he could win six in 25 years at Auburn; debatable, yes)
Penn State
Florida State
Florida (they've won 3 in the last 25 years, and he's better than the guys who won them)
I'm sure since I'm just spit balling here, there's maybe 3-4 other places he could win six in 25 years. Clemson maybe (let's see how it works when they actually have a bit of competition and people decide Venables isn't the second coming of Buddy Ryan).
One case I think is interesting? Georgia.
SHOULD he be able to do so? Well, in the last 25 years, Georgia has come VERY close once (2017), within a game three other times (2002, 2007, 2012). With Saban there, UGA likely wins at least two titles (17 and 12); given his documented problems with Auburn (similar to UGA's with Florida), it's debatable whether he could have won in 2002 or 2007 (along with the BCS rules).
OTOH......once you win one, you get a bit of a boost in the voters' eyes, too.
So Georgia (as always) is right there with Auburn.
Georgia 839-427-54 (.656)
Auburn 782-450-47 (.630)
Georgia leads series 61-56-8, and that entire gap is because UGA went 10-1 from 1940 through 1952 (Shug Jordan arrived in 1951). Given Georgia as a state has always been quite a bit larger than Alabama - and despite (yes) having some good Bobby Dodd Tech teams, UGA never had the in-state competition that Auburn does.......this is a toss-up.
UGA fans would have you believe that if Alabama and UGA had played every year in the 60s and 70s, Dooley would have more titles and Bryant fewer. But the cold, hard reality is that it might actually be a more appropriate insult to refer to the Dawgs as "East Auburn" rather than Auburn as "West GA." There's simply not much difference - both are 8-4 programs on average over the long haul.
Now.....I have no personal knowledge of the so-called "Georgia boosters." It seems to me the stench of failure, of monumental collapse hangs over the entire state of Georgia pretty much all the time. They were settled as a farming state (Auburn reference maybe?) and invaded by Spain, wound up under the ownership of the Brits and gained their independence.
It was the last war in which Georgia was on the winning side.
Sherman's march, Gone With the Wind commemorating it, the Falcons kicker whiffing the first kickoff (missing the ball) in franchise history, the first 1,000-yard rusher getting tackled for a loss on the next play that left him below 1,000 yards (this actually happened two straight years - way to go, Georgia). The Braves being awful and then winning ONE World Series, the Falcons blowing the 28-3 lead, the Dawgs blowing the 13-0 lead to a guy who had never played a meaningful snap.
Hell, even New Coke (one of the biggest failures in history) had its roots in Atlanta.
Georgia is basically Auburn.......so.......if I think Saban could MAYBE win six there, do I think he could at UGA?
Maybe.......but it's some sort of reverse Auburn luck that hangs over that state, too. I love the state, folks, so don't take it personal. But to paraphrase Churchill - "never have so few blown so much so often."
It depends where. LSU, Florida, Ohio St, Notre Dame, Michigan, USC, and Georgia then yes.
Nebraska, Tennessee, and other dead programs no.
Nebraska, Tennessee, and other dead programs no.
Coach Saban would WIN anywhere. He could take any program to a new level. He had done it before. Heck, if he'd stayed around the Dolphins long enough, they would have been a playoff team annually. Not sure about climbing that next level, with all of the rest that goes into winning a Super Bowl, so much that is out of the control of the head coach. Look at Belicheck. They've won so many times, similar coaching philosophy, but climbing the mountain every year was not something he could pull off this year.
Makes me wonder if Saban could ever have a "bad season" at Alabama. To us, and to him, 2 losses or not winning a conference or natty, has become a "bad season". Yes. 10 wins is not enough. But, like some of you have said, at Alabama, everything comes together. There may only be 1-2 other programs in all of America that this could be done. Ironically enough, I think Ohio State is one of those programs. Texas is not. USC is not. Don't get me started on Auburn or Tennessee. But LSU might be another, but that's too easy of a choice, because he's already been there, won a title, and built that program into a powerhouse, one that Miles and Goofball have both benefitted from.
Bryant-Saban. One program. I think if Coach Bryant and Mal Moore could both answer from that 100 yard field in the sky, they would both say Saban is the GOAT, and Alabama is the GPOAT.
Makes me wonder if Saban could ever have a "bad season" at Alabama. To us, and to him, 2 losses or not winning a conference or natty, has become a "bad season". Yes. 10 wins is not enough. But, like some of you have said, at Alabama, everything comes together. There may only be 1-2 other programs in all of America that this could be done. Ironically enough, I think Ohio State is one of those programs. Texas is not. USC is not. Don't get me started on Auburn or Tennessee. But LSU might be another, but that's too easy of a choice, because he's already been there, won a title, and built that program into a powerhouse, one that Miles and Goofball have both benefitted from.
Bryant-Saban. One program. I think if Coach Bryant and Mal Moore could both answer from that 100 yard field in the sky, they would both say Saban is the GOAT, and Alabama is the GPOAT.
I say no. Coach Saban and Alabama was a perfect storm, just like Coach Bryant. He would be good anywhere, but not like we’ve seen here.
Do I think he could conceivably win ONE in those type places?
Yes - he is that good.
But six? Not even close.
He was the GOAT when he won 4. I could easily seen him winning his 4th elsewhere is my point.
To clarify. I think CPB had extreme advantages in recruiting that modern football coaches don’t. But 6 national titles is hard to ignore. I would say probably 3 LEGIT and consensus titles in the modern era would equal CPB and 4 would probably surpass him. And No Osborne isn’t tied with Bryant because that 1997 title was completely bogus.
I can believe if Saban was at LSU or Ohio St that it’s realistic to believe he could win 4. Hell Tressel played in 3 in 6 years and he was just an above average coach. The last 3 LSU coaches have all won a national championship.
He’s a winner and would have success pretty much anywhere. However, the kind of success that he’s attained here I believe was a perfect storm. Alabama was a sleeping giant that had undergone a lot of misdirection at the helm for years under various leaders. Much of this facilitated by PTB trying to catch lightning in a bottle via the lineage of Bryant because they only thought for whatever reason that that was the best way to get back to those days.
So after Shula, Moore set on a quest to find THE best coach at the time. Saban was miserble in the pros and I think was even more determined to prove himself after that failure. He was granted pretty much full control of this beast and brought it back to its full potential like Bryant did before.
Not a question of him being successful, he would be that almost anywhere. You look at some of the programs that he could be ultra successful and most, if not all are not at a place where they give him that much control. Texas, Auburn, even LSU at this moment in time, have meddling power brokers that want their say in certain situations.
So after Shula, Moore set on a quest to find THE best coach at the time. Saban was miserble in the pros and I think was even more determined to prove himself after that failure. He was granted pretty much full control of this beast and brought it back to its full potential like Bryant did before.
Not a question of him being successful, he would be that almost anywhere. You look at some of the programs that he could be ultra successful and most, if not all are not at a place where they give him that much control. Texas, Auburn, even LSU at this moment in time, have meddling power brokers that want their say in certain situations.
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