Court papers allege Joe Pa knew of child sex abuse as far back as 1976

B1GTide · May 10, 2016

Most disturbing is the defensive reaction that PSU and its fan base is having to these newly uncovered facts. Rather than being further disgusted, as everyone else appears to be, they begin saying things like, "Let's not be in a rush to judgement" or "I don't understand the rush to judgement." Really?

Penn State, from the beginning, has been in cover-up mode and they still are. They have no remorse about what has happened. The school needs to be shut down and the stadium burned.

Sabanizer · May 11, 2016

JBama_in_PCOLA said:
My God. This really tarnishes his legacy of true.

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I keep hearing the theme from the Godfather......"Don't ever take sides against the family again"

RTR91 · May 12, 2016

John Ziegler is a nationally syndicated radio host, documentary filmmaker, and the creator of FramingPaterno.com. He joined Paul for three segments and took phone calls.

Audio here

NorthernTide · May 12, 2016

This whole saga is kind of surreal to me as I was at a Coaching clinic back in the late 90's and was sitting with several D-1 coaches enjoying a few adult beverages when the question of " why "X" coach hasn't gotten his own gig yet". I actually asked about Sandusky because of PSU defensive successes at the time and to a man ( there were 5 or 6 of them) they all started laughing saying he had some " unpleasant " habits. I pushed but no one would give details, just said it would eventually come out. I will always remember that night. One of them is now a " well known and respected " B10 coach. I say wow even now that it was rumor in the 90s and took that long to surface.

gtowntide · May 12, 2016

NorthernTide said:
This whole saga is kind of surreal to me as I was at a Coaching clinic back in the late 90's and was sitting with several D-1 coaches enjoying a few adult beverages when the question of " why "X" coach hasn't gotten his own gig yet". I actually asked about Sandusky because of PSU defensive successes at the time and to a man ( there were 5 or 6 of them) they all started laughing saying he had some " unpleasant " habits. I pushed but no one would give details, just said it would eventually come out. I will always remember that night. One of them is now a " well known and respected " B10 coach. I say wow even now that it was rumor in the 90s and took that long to surface.

And how many more children were abused because no one spoke up? That's just plain evil.

KrAzY3 · May 12, 2016

NorthernTide said:
This whole saga is kind of surreal to me as I was at a Coaching clinic back in the late 90's and was sitting with several D-1 coaches enjoying a few adult beverages when the question of " why "X" coach hasn't gotten his own gig yet". I actually asked about Sandusky because of PSU defensive successes at the time and to a man ( there were 5 or 6 of them) they all started laughing saying he had some " unpleasant " habits. I pushed but no one would give details, just said it would eventually come out. I will always remember that night. One of them is now a " well known and respected " B10 coach. I say wow even now that it was rumor in the 90s and took that long to surface.

I must live a sheltered life. When you see things like what went on at Penn State, or what went on with the Catholic church, it becomes mind boggling when you get to the actual number of people who knew and did nothing, not just people were were somehow complicit in what was going on.

I just... I don't really know what to say or think because how can someone know these things and do nothing? I've said it before I'll say it again. I'd turn in my own brother, I'd get the Alabama football program shut down if that's what it took. There's just nothing more important than protecting children that I can think of.

NorthernTide · May 12, 2016

Again, these coaches were speaking to rumors, but they were out there in the late 90's so it could have been the aforementioned events in 98, as I just can't recall exactly what year it was but definitely late 90's.

KrAzY3 · May 13, 2016

NorthernTide said:
Again, these coaches were speaking to rumors, but they were out there in the late 90's so it could have been the aforementioned events in 98, as I just can't recall exactly what year it was but definitely late 90's.

To be clear I wasn't trying to accuse anyone involved in that conversation. It would be hard to have anything actionable via third party hearsay I would assume.

The point I was making was, if your statements are true, it was out there enough at this point to explain an otherwise inexplicable situation. Someone doesn't hold a defensive coordinator position at a successful school for decades, it just doesn't happen. The idea that this many people could know about this situation, with a known explanation is both chilling and plausible. That means there had to be a lot of people that were in a position to take action.

There's something rotten at the core of some social groups, that allows for the actions of rapists and molesters to continue and be shielded. I don't understand it, I can't justify it, I have no greater understanding of it than I do of how people could put other innocent people in ovens. There's just something really, really wrong and it doesn't help one tiny bit that a lot of people involved in this sort of depravity seem to get away with it, or in the least retain some degree of popular support.

92tide · May 13, 2016

Someone doesn't hold a defensive coordinator position at a successful school for decades, it just doesn't happen.

bud foster has been d coordinator for a long time at va tech.

i think the lesson in this whole scenario, is that on some level, if you deliver results, folks (at least some folks) will sweep stuff under the rug to keep those results coming.

gtgilbert · May 13, 2016

B1GTide said:
Most disturbing is the defensive reaction that PSU and its fan base is having to these newly uncovered facts. Rather than being further disgusted, as everyone else appears to be, they begin saying things like, "Let's not be in a rush to judgement" or "I don't understand the rush to judgement." Really?

Penn State, from the beginning, has been in cover-up mode and they still are. They have no remorse about what has happened. The school needs to be shut down and the stadium burned.

I have a lot of PSU friends, but agree. Shut the place down if it's true that PSU knew about this for so long and did nothing but pay the boys and their families off without even trying to dismiss the evil man who was at the core of the problem and those protecting him.

deliveryman35 · May 13, 2016

I guess this means that the Joe Paterno statue will be collecting a lot more dust while in storage.

selmaborntidefan · May 13, 2016

Btw - it sure does put a new context in this long forgotten (except by me) statement, eh?

Paterno's remarks came a day before the Orange Bowl, when a
reporter asked about Florida State linebacker A.J. Nicholson, who
was accused of sexual assault and sent home before Tuesday's game.

Paterno replied by talking about past suspensions of Penn State
players. He then added: "There's some tough -- there's so many
people gravitating to these kids. He may not have even known what
he was getting into, Nicholson. They knock on the door; somebody
may knock on the door; a cute girl knocks on the door. What do you
do?"

"Geez. I hope -- thank God they don't knock on my door because
I'd refer them to a couple of other rooms," Paterno continued.
"But that's too bad. You hate to see that. I really do. You like
to see a kid end up his football career. He's a heck of a football
player, by the way; he's a really good football player. And it's
just too bad."

mittman · May 13, 2016

selmaborntidefan said:
Btw - it sure does put a new context in this long forgotten (except by me) statement, eh?

Paterno's remarks came a day before the Orange Bowl, when a
reporter asked about Florida State linebacker A.J. Nicholson, who
was accused of sexual assault and sent home before Tuesday's game.

Paterno replied by talking about past suspensions of Penn State
players. He then added: "There's some tough -- there's so many
people gravitating to these kids. He may not have even known what
he was getting into, Nicholson. They knock on the door; somebody
may knock on the door; a cute girl knocks on the door. What do you
do?"

"Geez. I hope -- thank God they don't knock on my door because
I'd refer them to a couple of other rooms," Paterno continued.
"But that's too bad. You hate to see that. I really do. You like
to see a kid end up his football career. He's a heck of a football
player, by the way; he's a really good football player. And it's
just too bad."

I guess so. Reading through that thread just reinforces some of my initial thoughts.

It seems to be getting more and more difficult to determine who is being accused correctly or falsely. It seems every day I know someone who appears to be fighting for their reputation against a false charge, or appears to be attempting to get justice for a valid one.

It does appear that Paterno knew a lot more than was initially thought. But then again it goes back to what did he believe. That old article does give some indication to his thought process. It feels wrong defending the guy in any way shape or form, but I continue to feel that I just don't know what he knew when, or what he thought about what he knew. I agree that in many cases it shouldn't matter what you believe when an accusation is made, the severity of the accusation requires some action. That in and of itself seems to be more and more problematic for Paterno.

We all make mistakes in our assumptions and gauging people. What continues to be obvious to me is that Paterno either made a massive misjudgment of Sandusky and others (even to the point of ignoring the obvious), or knew everything and covered it up. While plenty of people have no problem landing on one of those, I still continue to believe I just don't have enough information to comfortably sit firmly on one or the other.

KrAzY3 · May 13, 2016

mittman said:
It does appear that Paterno knew a lot more than was initially thought. But then again it goes back to what did he believe.

I can't buy that last part. He apparently threatened someone who came forward. Threatened them! Now, by all appearances there were decades of reports that Paterno was made aware of. There's just nothing left to hang onto that says he didn't know what was going on. Of course he did, he covered up for Sandusky. Belief though is not justification. I'm sure some Nazis believed they were somehow helping the world as they murdered innocent Jews, that in no way excuses their actions.

He has no idea why this guy who has been around for decades keeps being accused of messing with children? It appears that Paterno was instrumental in helping cover-up for Sandusky. Mind you, my interpretation of events hasn't really changed since the first key reports came out. Paterno was made aware, he did nothing, end of story. That's it, ballgame is over, Paterno was a sick scumbag. One of your own coaches wouldn't make up seeing Sandusky rape a kid in a shower, no way that happens. This wasn't he said she said, this was someone coming forward as a witness.

I've said it before but the most damning part of all of this to me is when Sandusky left Penn State. He was accused prior to the end of the season, this incident was severe enough that he had to go, but did he get fired on the spot? Nope, he was quietly ushered out at the end of the year.

Every single indication we have is that Paterno was complicit. He was part of the cover-up, he was willing for what ever depraved reason to help Sandusky evade punishment and in doing so he helped aid Sandusky rape children. That's all there is to it.

mittman · May 13, 2016

KrAzY3 said:
I can't buy that last part. He apparently threatened someone who came forward. Threatened them! Now, by all appearances there were decades of reports that Paterno was made aware of. There's just nothing left to hang onto that says he didn't know what was going on. Of course he did, he covered up for Sandusky. Belief though is not justification. I'm sure some Nazis believed they were somehow helping the world as they murdered innocent Jews, that in no way excuses their actions.

He has no idea why this guy who has been around for decades keeps being accused of messing with children? It appears that Paterno was instrumental in helping cover-up for Sandusky. Mind you, my interpretation of events hasn't really changed since the first key reports came out. Paterno was made aware, he did nothing, end of story. That's it, ballgame is over, Paterno was a sick scumbag. One of your own coaches wouldn't make up seeing Sandusky rape a kid in a shower, no way that happens. This wasn't he said she said, this was someone coming forward as a witness.

I've said it before but the most damning part of all of this to me is when Sandusky left Penn State. He was accused prior to the end of the season, this incident was severe enough that he had to go, but did he get fired on the spot? Nope, he was quietly ushered out at the end of the year.

Every single indication we have is that Paterno was complicit. He was part of the cover-up, he was willing for what ever depraved reason to help Sandusky evade punishment and in doing so he helped aid Sandusky rape children. That's all there is to it.

Don't get me wrong. I understand your stance, don't entirely disagree, and it would be very easy for me to just go right into that line of thinking again. I'm not even saying major mistakes were not made, and that there shouldn't be appropriate punishment and loss of esteem for those that made those mistakes. I am just not certain what mistakes were made when and know it can be more complicated than it seems.

You used very loaded wording. "He APPARENTLY threatened someone. ... Now by all APPEARANCES there were decades of reports ...

Apparently is a big word and a big deal when the accusation is that severe.

I guess I have been burned enough times. I have been very close to someone accused of something heinous that turned out to be completely false with multiple people piling on. It can make you too hesitant, and can see Paterno falling into the same trap. I have also been burned on the other side of it as well, where I couldn't image the person would do what they were accused of, and it turned out they did just that.

Trying to weed out what is true, even when there are multiple accusations, and you are very close to both the accused and the accuser (especially if it is someone you have had a long time relationship with) is not always cut and dry. Even when there are multiple accusations, they can be just people piling on.

Again, I really don't feel comfortable appearing to defend him. In fact I don't think I am. All I am trying to say is that he may have just trusted the wrong person.

B1GTide · May 13, 2016

mittman said:
Again, I really don't feel comfortable appearing to defend him. In fact I don't think I am. All I am trying to say is that he may have just trusted the wrong person.

Even if this is 100% true he is still responsible because he would have ignored smoke pouring out of a building for years because he trusted someone who kept telling him that there is nothing to see here.

At some point you have to willingly suspend your disbelief to do so - especially if the person that is asking for your trust has a vested interest in your ignorance.So, at best Paterno was practicing willful ignorance. Given the stakes, you have to be pretty evil to play that game.

Some might argue that people in his generation were taught to handle this type of "problem" differently, but even that wouldn't reduce his culpability here. He acted like a parent who knows that their child is a predator but helps cover it up to protect the child and the family name.

IMO, there is no scenario in which Paterno isn't personally responsible for the rape of these children. He might as well have personally participated, so complicit is he in their harm.

gtowntide · May 13, 2016

mittman said:
Don't get me wrong. I understand your stance, don't entirely disagree, and it would be very easy for me to just go right into that line of thinking again. I'm not even saying major mistakes were not made, and that there shouldn't be appropriate punishment and loss of esteem for those that made those mistakes. I am just not certain what mistakes were made when and know it can be more complicated than it seems.

You used very loaded wording. "He APPARENTLY threatened someone. ... Now by all APPEARANCES there were decades of reports ...

Apparently is a big word and a big deal when the accusation is that severe.

I guess I have been burned enough times. I have been very close to someone accused of something heinous that turned out to be completely false with multiple people piling on. It can make you too hesitant, and can see Paterno falling into the same trap. I have also been burned on the other side of it as well, where I couldn't image the person would do what they were accused of, and it turned out they did just that.

Trying to weed out what is true, even when there are multiple accusations, and you are very close to both the accused and the accuser (especially if it is someone you have had a long time relationship with) is not always cut and dry. Even when there are multiple accusations, they can be just people piling on.

Again, I really don't feel comfortable appearing to defend him. In fact I don't think I am. All I am trying to say is that he may have just trusted the wrong person.

So what do you think the motive is for all these people coming forward since the 70's? You'll never convince me that Joe Paterno didn't know about Sandusky. He ignored it. To me his legacy is he took good care of his buddy, even if he raped children.

KrAzY3 · May 13, 2016

mittman said:
I guess I have been burned enough times. I have been very close to someone accused of something heinous that turned out to be completely false with multiple people piling on. It can make you too hesitant, and can see Paterno falling into the same trap. I have also been burned on the other side of it as well, where I couldn't image the person would do what they were accused of, and it turned out they did just that.

I used words like apparently to frame one single even in what is a line of events. The reason this stuff is stuck at apparently, we are talking about lengthy and well documented events, at least some of it is because Paterno ran interference! He kept this from being open and shut, Sandusky in jail and no more kids being raped. That's the issue! There are some people that claim the holocaust didn't happen to, past a certain point one has to acknowledge facts.

Your line of though, unfortunately is what helps enable these things to continue (I don't blame you personally of course). It's why Michael Jackson's posters are still in the kids section of stores, despite the irrevocable fact that a child knew exactly what his penis looked like! This is why Bill Cosby could keep on doing what he did to.

Now you can talk about your personal experience, what ever that may be, but where there is smoke there is fire in these instances. Does it matter if Michael Jackson was falsely accused if even one accusation was accurate (and once again the child identified peculiar marks on Michael Jackson's penis), does it matter if one of the 60 women that says Bill Cosby raped them is lying? No, not really, it doesn't, what matters is that Michael Jackson diddled at least one kid, Bill Cosby has a lengthy history of rape, and Sandusky was protected by Joe Paterno while he for decades abused children.

The problem is so many people want to look away, they want it to not be true, or they moralize the abuse somehow. I mean Michael Jackson gave that kid's family millions right? So, that makes it ok right? Millions for being abused, sounds fair? So we can justify listening to his music. Bill Cosby, he was such an important figure, I mean we can overlook those pesky rape allegations that just keep coming up right? Because I mean he's Bill Cosby. And Jerry Sandusky? May be those boys were gay anyway, right? Besides, Joe Paterno is such a good guy, so well respected, that I mean no way he'd let this go on right? Besides, think of all the good Penn State football did to that city? What's a few boys getting raped in the shower?

What you have to understand, is a single false accusation doesn't make someone innocent. But a single action does indeed make someone guilty! Joe Paterno chose to keep someone protected while he went on a decades long child raping spree! Let me not mince words, he protected and enabled a crime spree of the most disgusting sort. This spree was so egregious it was investigated multiple times over multiple decades. If not for direct interference from Joe Paterno and an obviously corrupt system (much like the cover up shenanigans at FSU) Sandusky would have been in jail and no longer raping children. I hope there's a hell so Joe Paterno has a place to rot. Let me put this as plainly as possible since some people seem to want to give him some wiggle room.

mittman · May 13, 2016

gtowntide said:
So what do you think the motive is for all these people coming forward since the 70's? You'll never convince me that Joe Paterno didn't know about Sandusky. He ignored it. To me his legacy is he took good care of his buddy, even if he raped children.

I THINK the motive is that they want the truth to be told. Paterno's legacy and reputation is tarnished at best, ruined at worst, and will always be in most people's estimation. Nothing I have said changes that. But that tricky THINK word is still there.

I never expect to convince anyone on a message board.

I do not ever condone covering for someone who is doing despicable things. Again, I have no proof of what Paterno knew for a fact. Unless I have missed something, everything I have heard is what Paterno was told, not what he witnessed. So he had to make a decision as to who and what he believed. Then he had to make a decision on what to do about it. This APPEARS to have happened multiple times over a long period of time. However, (again unless I missed something) no indication as to how long those instances were separated or how often the occurred. The only thing I believe I can know is he failed miserably in that aspect.

He APPARENTLY had knowledge that it COULD have happened. Over the years APPARENTLY and COULD have come to mean just that for me.

RTR91 · May 13, 2016

mittman said:
I THINK the motive is that they want the truth to be told. Paterno's legacy and reputation is tarnished at best, ruined at worst, and will always be in most people's estimation. Nothing I have said changes that. But that tricky THINK word is still there.

I never expect to convince anyone on a message board.

I do not ever condone covering for someone who is doing despicable things. Again, I have no proof of what Paterno knew for a fact. Unless I have missed something, everything I have heard is what Paterno was told, not what he witnessed. So he had to make a decision as to who and what he believed. Then he had to make a decision on what to do about it. This APPEARS to have happened multiple times over a long period of time. However, (again unless I missed something) no indication as to how long those instances were separated or how often the occurred. The only thing I believe I can know is he failed miserably in that aspect.

He APPARENTLY had knowledge that it COULD have happened. Over the years APPARENTLY and COULD have come to mean just that for me.

Does it matter how far apart the instances were if we believe he was told by multiple people? One thing to have a random kid tell you something. Another thing to have multiple kids over a certain number of years say the same thing without knowing someone else made the same claims.

After multiple kids make the claims, shouldn't he at least ask his longtime friend about them? And then go to the authorities?

Court papers allege Joe Pa knew of child sex abuse as far back as 1976

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