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Health Care Summit

To this Right vs Privilege thing:

No way healthcare is a right. A right is something that cannot put responsibility on someone else. Call it semantics all you want, but there is a very VERY important difference. A right is something you would have if you were the only person alive on earth. Government is merely the unification of individuals to protect these rights from usurpation by others. A right has nothing to do with compelling one person to do something for another.

It is a right to be able to get married. It is not a right to force someone to marry me. It is a right to be able to barter with another person. It is not a right to force them to give me something. etc etc

Privileges are things that other people do for you. Police and fire is a privilege. If I was out in the sticks and my log cabin went up in flames, it is not the responsibility of anyone else to come put the fire out. If a gust of wind knocked my coffee cup off the table and it shattered, is someone else obliged to glue it back together or replace it for me? No. The police come because we pay them to. Firemen put out the fire for money. If they were not paid, they would not come. Nobody is obligated to help another person. That is why they call it charity. It is a gesture that does not have to be undertaken, but is done out of benevolence.
 
RammerJammer14 said:
To this Right vs Privilege thing:

No way healthcare is a right. A right is something that cannot put responsibility on someone else. Call it semantics all you want, but there is a very VERY important difference. A right is something you would have if you were the only person alive on earth. Government is merely the unification of individuals to protect these rights from usurpation by others. A right has nothing to do with compelling one person to do something for another.

It is a right to be able to get married. It is not a right to force someone to marry me. It is a right to be able to barter with another person. It is not a right to force them to give me something. etc etc

Privileges are things that other people do for you. Police and fire is a privilege. If I was out in the sticks and my log cabin went up in flames, it is not the responsibility of anyone else to come put the fire out. If a gust of wind knocked my coffee cup off the table and it shattered, is someone else obliged to glue it back together or replace it for me? No. The police come because we pay them to. Firemen put out the fire for money. If they were not paid, they would not come. Nobody is obligated to help another person. That is why they call it charity. It is a gesture that does not have to be undertaken, but is done out of benevolence.
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This is the one argument that I have heard a number of times that has me questioning whether or not it should be a "right". If we say that it is, we are saying that people who enter the medical profession are required to provide a service to others, whether or not they can pay for that service. Which is why I think that we need to discuss an amendment and let the people decide. Essentially, if people in the medical field are to be required to offer this service, we need to formalize the way that is to be handled, and those services paid for. If we do not recognize this as a right, then we need to formally understand that the result will be the premature death of millions of people - so high is the current cost of medical care in America.

Or do we just let things keep going as they are today, with costs rising by 10% or more every year. How long will it be before even you and I find ourselves unable to purchase insurance? 10 years? 20? Who will help us?
 
Which is why this healthcare reform thing is complete garbage.

The last thing we need to do right now is throw more money at a money problem. And that's what it is.

The healthcare system, as a result of the abuses of the system as well as problems regarding it with the legal and insurance industries, is hemorrhaging cash. The first thing we need to do is try and reduce the overall costs and excesses in the healthcare system, and nothing more. Until that is done, any monies thrown at it will be wasted.

We need better regulation to curb system abuses and fraud. Those two things drive up the costs of the system more than anything. We need to have better protection for our medical professionals who are simply trying to help, and get a reign on all these frivolous lawsuits. Did you know that, at $150 an hour, about an hour of billed work everyday for a family practice physician goes to pay malpractice insurance? How crazy is that?

And many, both patients and professionals, have few to no qualms regarding defrauding insurance companies. I actually caught a local clinic here committing (or attempting to commit) insurance fraud. My wife visited it when she needed attention over the weekend and our doctor's office was closed. They gave her a strep test, asked her a bunch of questions, and gave her some prescriptions. When we looked at the bill that they were going to send to our insurance company, there were two additional tests listed that were not performed as well as a shot that she did not received. I know that the tests weren't performed because they were blood tests, and no blood was taken. After calling the clinic back, they apologized for their "mistake" and removed those items. Now, I don't know whether or not it was a mistake or whether they were trying to milk the insurance company. I wouldn't be surprised either way, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt. It wouldn't have cost us any money, since we had already met our deductible, but it would have cost our insurance company. Those inflated costs are a big part of what drives up premiums.

Rather than finding a way to spend more money on an already inefficient system, we should be trying to reduce the costs for everyone. Instead of spending billions of dollars to get overpriced healthcare to more people, why not try to reduce the costs of the healthcare so more people can afford it?
 
One more thing on the right vs. privilege thing, and this is as simple as I can put it. And this applies to any privilege that we, as a society, decide to make a right including healthcare if it comes to that.

The government has (or rather should have) no responsibility in providing rights, only protecting them.
 
They need to trash it and start over. What is on the table now is not what needs to be put into law.

We're not going to be perfect and I don't expect the Constitution to be followed perfectly. (How could I, since it has been routinely trampled on since about 1861?) However, a good rule of thumb that should have always been followed is simply to ask the question, is this going to expand the federal government or reduce it? If the answer was reduce it or even keep it the same, then it was probably a good idea. If the answer was to expand it, then it was most likely a bad idea that would end up hurting more than helping in the long run.

We are a sick nation right now. Very sick, I'd say. And it's because we have (as a government) taken on so many entitlement programs out of a misguided effort to equalize the citizenry. Humankind has never been equal, since the beginning of time until now, and it never will be. There has to be a level headed balance to what we try to do to "make everyone equal." Without that, we will have what we have today. A country in serious (that adjective is so far from describing the level accurately) debt and it is not unrealistic to suggest that we are on the verge of collapse. What "collapse" means, I am not sure, but the current status quo cannot be sustained and the system will have to be flushed out. This goes for healthcare, the banking industry, the auto industry, everything.

I'm for more freedom, not less. Freedom is not possible without responsibility. We've long since lost true responsibility as a society, and because of that, we have lost our freedom as well. My hope is that is bill dies the ugly death it should, and that our representatives start over with an honest attempt at reform by attacking the waste first, not by adding more.

Perhaps I'm oversimplifying it, but I'm just one guy. And as of right now, I feel absolutely powerless and hopeless to do anything about any of this. I am left to hope that a bunch of dishonest, irresponsible politicians will do the right thing.
 
NYBamaFan said:
If we do not recognize this as a right, then we need to formally understand that the result will be the premature death of millions of people - so high is the current cost of medical care in America.
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This is a absolutely absurd statement. You are basically saying we need to go and tell medical professionals that they have no choice, they are required to provide care no matter what in order to save people?

Do you realize what that would do to health care? Cuba has affordable health care, go there if you're ok with inept medical professionals and horrible facilities. If you want the best, America has it to offer but the best doesn't come for free. You think all those medicines, fancy equipment and professionals at the top of their field are products of charity? They are products of a system that is intended to pay for a high level of care, not just for attentiveness from someone calling themselves a medical professional.

You want to kill millions, tell our medical professionals that they are obligated to provide care no matter the compensation and see how that turns out...
 
IMO, at this point probably the best thing would be to break it into parts (public option, tort reform etc) and vote on each part. If the reps want to filibuster it, so be it. Put it all on the table and see what happens. We need to get this out of the way to address financial reform which seems to have stalled.
 
KrAzY3 said:
This is a absolutely absurd statement. You are basically saying we need to go and tell medical professionals that they have no choice, they are required to provide care no matter what in order to save people?
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We already tell them this. It's the reason why tons of hospitals are having to shut down their Emergency Departments due to them hemorrhaging cash. I remember taking a Health Care Management class at UA and them showing a (now-outdated) graph of locations in Alabama where the nearest emergency room was one or two hours away. There were hospitals closer, yes, but none that could afford emergency care, and this problem has been escalating.

So a corollary to NYBF's point is that, if we maintain that health care is not a right (thus not endorsing widespread preventative care and not softening ED use through this) yet still leave a law like EMTALA in place, hospitals will have to continue to close their EDs such that it will begin to severely affect health care delivery to the properly insured. There is a certain cognitive dissonance in our laws at the moment which cannot stand--we see health care as a commodity, yet have stipulations on circumstances in which the medical field cannot refuse care. This is being abused, and it's one of the components that's killing us. So we either refuse all care unless you can pay for it, even if it means watching people die in hospital parking lots or on the phone trying to secure an ambulance ride, or we provide a basic level of health care for all citizens.
 
CharminTide said:
Then what was your point with the state/local vs. federal government question?

Also, I'm pretty sure the Declaration says something about the purpose of government being to secure certain inalienable rights. Your use of "came from" is again in danger of being one of those semantic barriers, but it's clear that the Founders saw government as a mechanism to protect our equal rights.
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The Declaration says, "...all men...are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." The question then becomes, "what constitutes Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." A moral and thus reasonable answer can only come from a moral people. The U.S. long ago abandoned true morality, as it has abandoned the only source of true morality - the Creator Who endowed those unalienable Rights. We are seeing more and more the consequences of doing so - and it will continue, most likely with breathtaking rapidity.
 
CharminTide said:
So we either refuse all care unless you can pay for it, even if it means watching people die in hospital parking lots or on the phone trying to secure an ambulance ride, or we provide a basic level of health care for all citizens.
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I have to say that I do think there are many problems with the health care system. This is the truth and there's no way around that. Nothing that I say it intended to say that we are doing things perfectly because they are very far from that. However, having lived in Germany under socialized medicine I can speak for myself, my wife and unfortunately on behalf of my deceased mother-in-law when I say that the level of care America offers is better.

So, the idea of health care as a right ultimately, as even your wording said comes down to what level of health care should be available. Should basic care be available for all, and in doing meaning only basic care for most or should our system be encouraged to provide the best health care it possibly can? Those things are mutually exclusive, we can not tell our professionals they are obligated to give care and to control the terms under which they do that, and still expect a high level of care to be the result.

To contrast, and I say this over and over (and I said this before the death of my German mother-in-law, who had undetected tumors as she lay dying) but one major example would be MRIs. My wife, in America was given a MRI a year because she was high risk for cancer. My mother-in-law had cancer multiple times yet only had a single MRI in her entire life! To further the example I believe Cuba only has one or two MRI machines in the entire country! When you mess with the financing, you take away the top level of care. My mother in law supposedly lived under a great level of care, yet she died from complications to her cancer treatment. Treatment that was apparently misguided since they hadn't given her a MRI recently and hadn't detected that she had other tumors. The sad thing is I gave this MRI example well before her death.

My wife has to pay her health care premiums and her deductables and has to decide she wants health care. Once she takes those steps and behaves responsibly she had the best care available to her. The idea that we instead move to some form of comulsary care that would be more like what everyone got in Germany is horrible to me.

I believe, if unburdened the health care system would move in two direction. We'd still have people like the Shriners running charitable hospitables and offering services free of charge which may still do great things. However, on the other hand we'd free up profit seeking medical professionals to get rich off their breakthroughs, off creating treatments that did not exist before and would not exist if we did not allow them to seek a profit. On the other hand, if we tell them they must become our servants they just might go John Galt...

As it stands, our medical system props up the rest of the world. Many of the best doctors I encountered in Germany were in fact trained in America. Many of the best treatments and medicines originate in America. We subsidize drugs to countries in Africa and the like and countries like Brazil brazenly wait for us to make new medicines then steal them. Our machine powers much of the advancements worldwide. If we slow that machine we not only hamper our level of care but the looters worldwide wouldn't have anything to loot. While that might be a form of justice it would also lower our level of care to their level. Why did the Canadian Premier come to America for heart surgery? It certainly wasn't because the Canadian system provides a better level of care.
 
KrAzY3 said:
Why did the Canadian Premier come to America for heart surgery? It certainly wasn't because the Canadian system provides a better level of care.
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This statement is so weak as to be intellectually dishonest. A single visit to a single specialist and suddenly Canada's healthcare system is worse than America's? What about the thousands of Americans that get care in Canada every day? What about the millions of Americans that get Rx drugs from Canada? Guess they don't matter right? After all, their Premier came here for care... :rolleyes:
 
gmart74 said:
i think this is just the normal life cycle of any democracy or representative society. it begins with people who sacrifice and work hard. it is slowly eroded by the concept of helping other people until there is a sense of entitlement. then the system crashes under the weight of the leeches. i sense we are towards the end of that lifecycle.

i can just imagine waaaaaaaay back in the day that zebediah is having a barn raising. he gets all his neighbors to come out to help. however one guy, zaccharias, wants to stay home and hump wynona. so he does, while doing this he gets hungry, so he yells at zebediah (who has one wall up on the barn) to stop erecting his barn, go get some corn and flour and make zaccharias some corn pies. after gorging himself on the corn pies, zaccharias looks around and sees that zebediah's barn is better than his. zebediah's hard work and success makes zaccharias feel inferior. so zaccharias gets the town to force zebediah to take down one barn wall and give it to zaccharias. at this point, zebediah has been humping wynona for a few months and realizes he forgot to go out and till his land, plant seeds and harvest it for the coming winter. so once again he gets zebediah to give up 1/4 of his harvest for zaccharias. eventually zebediah is so fed up with the bum that he slaps zaccharias and takes his barn wall back, takes his crops back, and spits on zaccharias. the next day zebediah is in jail for hate crimes against lazy people. zaccharias, upon seeing this, decides to yell at jehella next. the process continues until all the good people are in jail, zaccharias now has 40 deadbeat kids, and they slowly expand their plague to neighboring cities.

hmmmm i should write a novel.
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Why do you hate the amish?
 
CharminTide said:
We already tell them this. It's the reason why tons of hospitals are having to shut down their Emergency Departments due to them hemorrhaging cash. I remember taking a Health Care Management class at UA and them showing a (now-outdated) graph of locations in Alabama where the nearest emergency room was one or two hours away. There were hospitals closer, yes, but none that could afford emergency care, and this problem has been escalating.

So a corollary to NYBF's point is that, if we maintain that health care is not a right (thus not endorsing widespread preventative care and not softening ED use through this) yet still leave a law like EMTALA in place, hospitals will have to continue to close their EDs such that it will begin to severely affect health care delivery to the properly insured. There is a certain cognitive dissonance in our laws at the moment which cannot stand--we see health care as a commodity, yet have stipulations on circumstances in which the medical field cannot refuse care. This is being abused, and it's one of the components that's killing us. So we either refuse all care unless you can pay for it, even if it means watching people die in hospital parking lots or on the phone trying to secure an ambulance ride, or we provide a basic level of health care for all citizens.
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You ever been to Fort Payne?
 
NYBamaFan said:
This statement is so weak as to be intellectually dishonest. A single visit to a single specialist and suddenly Canada's healthcare system is worse than America's?
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Nice of you to overlook the context I provided, which is based on firsthand experience within socialized medicine. Care you try again or do you lack a true rebuttal to what I had to say?
 
KrAzY3 said:
Nice of you to overlook the context I provided, which is based on firsthand experience within socialized medicine. Care you try again or do you lack a true rebuttal to what I had to say?
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We have had a number of TideFans members post their personal experiences with "socialized medicine". (See here - your boogey man)

Read this forum a bit more and you might be surprised to learn that a number of the people who have lived under those systems have been pretty happy with them and prefer them to the American system. If you read a bit more, you might come to learn why I am so upset with the American system. In short, the context didn't move me, so I decided to address your absurd conclusion...

:cheers2:
 
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