Judge orders Verizon to hand over all cell phone call data to NSA

[Jon]

You know the way government works, swoop. Once it's opened, it ain't never going to be closed.

That was my point during the Bush years and during the Patriot act's initial passing, "you may like this now and who you are giving this power to, but you won't always like the guy who sits in that chair, the next guy gets to keep this power" That argument got me nowhere and just after 9/11 it got me called some pretty nasty things.

I'd argue that this has been going on forever, because it has, the Patriot Act simply made it easier to do.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

First off I agree with EVERYTHING you're saying. This type thing is not good for our country. But unfortunately the landscape of our country has drastically changed over the last 25 years or so. I maybe wrong but it seems to me we've got more people living in our country who hate our country but love the benefits. It was said after 9/11 that there is a very good possibility that "Terror Cells" are living among us. As the 9/11 guys, who lived five years as "everyday neighbors" then all of a sudden with a given signal carried out a tragedy.

How do we become pro-active rather than reactive? This is not the same country as it was 25-30+ years ago and is not made up of the same type people (not referencing skin color but mindset).

Put it to the test, if you like. We could ponder whether or not Obama would have done the same thing, but it appears to me that all the things his administration has done that everyone is so up in arms about, is nothing more than using guidelines put in place by the Bush administration.

No, I haven't forgotten 9/11. It's burned into my memory. I also haven't forgotten what I learned about the American Revolution, the Declaration of Independence, and the writing of the Constitution.

This kind of thing is not ok. It may provide safety in the short term, but it will not lead us to a place we like.

And if you'd like to argue that the Bush Administration passed the Patriot Act with nothing but good intentions, and they couldn't foresee what it would lead to, then I've got some beach front property on Sand Mountain that I'd like to sell you.

 

[Jon]

First off I agree with EVERYTHING you're saying. This type thing is not good for our country. But unfortunately the landscape of our country has drastically changed over the last 25 years or so. I maybe wrong but it seems to me we've got more people living in our country who hate our country but love the benefits. It was said after 9/11 that there is a very good possibility that "Terror Cells" are living among us. As the 9/11 guys, who lived five years as "everyday neighbors" then all of a sudden with a given signal carried out a tragedy.

How do we become pro-active rather than reactive? This is not the same country as it was 25-30+ years ago and is not made up of the same type people (not referencing skin color but mindset).

Well we've been doing this for years and it didn't come close to stopping the Boston Marathon bombers so what's the point exactly? Personally i'd rather risk it and be more free.

 

[TideEngineer08]

First off I agree with EVERYTHING you're saying. This type thing is not good for our country. But unfortunately the landscape of our country has drastically changed over the last 25 years or so. I maybe wrong but it seems to me we've got more people living in our country who hate our country but love the benefits. It was said after 9/11 that there is a very good possibility that "Terror Cells" are living among us. As the 9/11 guys, who lived five years as "everyday neighbors" then all of a sudden with a given signal carried out a tragedy.

How do we become pro-active rather than reactive? This is not the same country as it was 25-30+ years ago and is not made up of the same type people (not referencing skin color but mindset).

You are correct. But what is so frustrating about that point, is that if the government would have enforced the laws that were in place, much of the ability of the terrorists ability to inflict harm from within our country would have been neutered.

I don't think any of us would have a problem with some of this stuff if we could trust our fellow man. Problem is, we can't. I can't trust my own family sometimes so I surely can't trust a bureaucrat. When it gets to the point (and frankly we're already there) when you will be prosecuted because you are not sympathetic to the government's cause... like I said... not good.

 

[Bama Torch in Pcola]

Well we've been doing this for years and it didn't come close to stopping the Boston Marathon bombers so what's the point exactly? Personally i'd rather risk it and be more free.

I agree. But the dye has been cast. There is nothing now to keep our government respectful of its citizens. The politician de jure will always sell it and our ever dependent populace will buy it.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

That was my point during the Bush years and during the Patriot act's initial passing, "you may like this now and who you are giving this power to, but you won't always like the guy who sits in that chair, the next guy gets to keep this power" That argument got me nowhere and just after 9/11 it got me called some pretty nasty things.

I'd argue that this has been going on forever, because it has, the Patriot Act simply made it easier to do.

They were calling you nasty names before that. :biggrin2:

 

[CrimsonChuck]

Well we've been doing this for years and it didn't come close to stopping the Boston Marathon bombers so what's the point exactly? Personally i'd rather risk it and be more free.

But who knows what it has stopped? We probably will never know. And this is only the numbers called...they can't record your conversations without a warrant.

 

[cbi1972]

But who knows what it has stopped? We probably will never know. And this is only the numbers called...they can't record your conversations without a warrant.

You're funny.

 

[AlexanderFan]

This is just another way to keep track of those who may wish to wrestle the power away from those entrenched. Same coin. Both keep passing the baton to the other to stay in power. They just keep passing the ball back and forth. It's like watching " The Phantom Menace" without the light sabers.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

[Jon]

They were calling you nasty names before that. :biggrin2:

this is of course true

 

[chanson78]

I am not sure that anyone who actually takes a critical look at politicians could actually believe that Obama would ever voluntarily relinquish the great power that was granted to the government and especially the executive branch as a result of the legislative over-reaction due to 9/11.

In matters of Power, let no more be heard of confidence in men, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.

 

[Jon]

But who knows what it has stopped? We probably will never know. And this is only the numbers called...they can't record your conversations without a warrant.

Did you see the German Metadata records I posted? It is not "just numbers called" click that link and follow the life of that German guy for 6 months. The US Government has that level of detail on all Citizens with a Verizon Cell phone (and probably all the others too whistle-blowers have said as much publicly we simply have documented proof of VZW). I don't want the Government having that level of access to my life even if it makes me "safer"

 

[swoop10]

The story.

So do you believe this happened under the Bush Administration or not. I also believe the current administration defended this as just looking for terriorist. I don't have time to find a link now but will look later.

You know the way government works, swoop. Once it's opened, it ain't never going to be closed.

I agree but the only hope you have of getting the box closed is for the people who support this administration to stand against this the way they did under Bush. The non-supportors will just be looked at as being against anything this administration does but if the supportors stand it may make a difference. Who knows?

 

[2003TIDE]

I don't want the Government having that level of access to my life even if it makes me "safer"

The FBI already rides around with a truck intercepting cell phone calls and gathering data on citizens without a warrant. Local police are now tracking citizen movements and gathering data with the police car mounted tag readers. They've been reading email with national security letters. Google fought this and just lost. Nation wide cell phone tracking of individual is the next logical step for them. As some point they are going to be just as bad as the governments we oppose. At what point is "protecting ourselves against terrorist" no longer worth it?

 

[92tide]

just wanted to post a blast from the past on this same topic. fwiw, i think we need to scrap the whole "war on terror" non-sense.

http://www.tidefans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38248&highlight=NSA+surveillance

 

[Bamabuzzard]

just wanted to post a blast from the past on this same topic. fwiw, i think we need to scrap the whole "war on terror" non-sense.

http://www.tidefans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38248&highlight=NSA+surveillance

Especially when we're afraid to even use the word terrorist. It's kind of hard to have a name like that when we're not supposed to say one of the words in the name. :smile:

 

[92tide]

Especially when we're afraid to even use the word terrorist. It's kind of hard to have a name like that when we're not supposed to say one of the words in the name. :smile:

i know i cower and run for cover everytime i use the word "on"

 

[Bamabuzzard]

i know i cower and run for cover everytime i use the word "on"

Maybe the "T-Word" will be acceptable. "The war 'O-word' 'T-word'."

 

[92tide]

Maybe the "T-Word" will be acceptable. "The war 'O-word' 'T-word'."

at least then i get to show my O and my T face

 

[Bodhisattva]

i know i cower and run for cover everytime i use the word "on"

I'm one of the Knights of Ni, so I have my own vocabulary issues.