The Tragedy of Theology: How Religion Caused and Extended the Dark Ages

Probius

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selmaborntidefan

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Aren't you the gentleman about a year or so ago who converted from one religion to another and had a thread on here about it?

If so then although I pretty much stayed out of the specifics of that thread, here is some advice: whatever your view of God or whatever, please do not waste your life acting out in anger against the view you USED to hold. Too many people do this (for Pete's sake, I did it at one time a long time ago). The old, "I used to be X, but now I'm Y and X is an awful view that must be destroyed."

Don't waste time doing it.

All I saw early on (and stopped reading) was basically the old "he says this but this other guy says that." Appealing to authority. Not necessarily wrong, but I'd have to know more about the actual book/thesis whatever to comment more regarding right or wrong.

If I have you confused with someone else, my sincerest apologies.
 

Probius

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That's me, I was a Catholic and toyed with Judaism a while before leaving faith altogether. I don't spend my days being angry with religion, I have a job and family and real life concerns. But I do find the topic interesting, and enjoy discussing it. Some of the mods got a little tired of it a few months back, so I will just keep it here in this thread. I do get a little frustrated at times because religion holds back much progress.
 

GreatDanish

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I do get a little frustrated at times because religion holds back much progress.
You see what you want to see. I see people who give up careers in medicine to open up clinics in third world countries. People do that without religion, but I know three men who did this all in the name of their faith.
I know of more marriages than I can count that would be dead except for the partners' desire to be "Christians" in their marriages.
I know former drug addicts who changed their ways due to conviction through their religion. Some now preach and help drug addicts quit their addictions.
Religious dogma and religious traditions may hold back progress but authentic religious faith that leads people to help others (arguably the core behavior of the Christian faith) can better the world. It's just that there is so little authentic faith out there.
 

BamaFlum

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You see what you want to see. I see people who give up careers in medicine to open up clinics in third world countries. People do that without religion, but I know three men who did this all in the name of their faith.
I know of more marriages than I can count that would be dead except for the partners' desire to be "Christians" in their marriages.
I know former drug addicts who changed their ways due to conviction through their religion. Some now preach and help drug addicts quit their addictions.
Religious dogma and religious traditions may hold back progress but authentic religious faith that leads people to help others (arguably the core behavior of the Christian faith) can better the world. It's just that there is so little authentic faith out there.
Excellent. For me it's not about religious dogma but a relationship with my Creator through his Son.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk, so my fat fingers cause misspellings and autocorrect makes my ships into...
 

Nate Harris

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When I want to understand religion the very LAST place I'll go looking is in some journal devoted to ivory tower atheism. Objectivists blame religion for damn-near everything. It's the one trait they share with Marxists. Whadda load of crap.
 
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selmaborntidefan

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That's me, I was a Catholic and toyed with Judaism a while before leaving faith altogether. I don't spend my days being angry with religion, I have a job and family and real life concerns. But I do find the topic interesting, and enjoy discussing it.
Nothing wrong with that.

Some of the mods got a little tired of it a few months back, so I will just keep it here in this thread. I do get a little frustrated at times because religion holds back much progress.
But your last comment is a circular argument. Are there cases where religion HAS? Yes. But then again most of those places had a state-controlled religion. Furthermore, I think the civil rights movement in the USA would disagree vehemently with your statement.

And while I don't ascribe to the Civil War slavery myth (e.g. slavery as the root cause), should I point out it was a number of religious people supporting abolition that helped bring about that change? And it was done in the name of their faith.

Anyway, have a good evening.
 

seebell

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At the time, would the pyramids of ancient Egypt be considered an advancement or holding back progress?
That depends if we find out how extraterrestrials built them and whether we can find the secret room that holds the knowledge of the ages.
 

tide power fan

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Protestant didn’t come into being until 1517, Religion wasn't nearly as popular during the dark ages as for some reason this article seems to believe. I can bet before 1400 you could find many villages that didn’t know anything about religion and, what is this Authors excuse for the rest of the world Asia, Africa etc.
 

G-VilleTider

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That was way too long for me to read. I would argue, for what its worth, that it was political instability that led to the "dark ages" to the extent they were actually dark. The only truly stable institution was the Catholic Church, which is one reason that most advances, philosophy, and scientific discovery was made by religious scholars.

And also, arguing that "theology" somehow extended the Dark Ages is fine. Whatever. I don't find it compelling, but I didn't read the book that was posted, either. Claiming that theology started the Dark Ages is just ignorant and completely ignores the historical cause of the Dark Ages--the fall of the Roman Empire, a cataclysm of which the world has not seen before or since.
Makes one wonder if we are seeing the early signs of another.
 

Tidewater

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I thought this article was interesting, what do y'all think?

The Tragedy of Theology: How Religion Caused and Extended the Dark Ages
I actually read the article, which was actually very good. Thanks for posting it.
I found Bernstein's argument interesting. It made me think.
I did have some critiques, however.
First off, the calamity that was the collapse of the western Empire in the fifth century was enormous. With wave after wave of illiterate ultra-violent barbarians sweeping over western Europe, life became very dangerous and uncertain. Western Europeans, finding no signs of light in public life, turned inward seeking solace in the next life. Bernstein seems to be conflating the effects of the "Dark Ages" (lowered standards of living, illiteracy) for the causes (Huns, Vandals, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Lombards, Vikings, etc.)
Historian Ralph Raico of Buffalo argues (persuasively, in my view) that the existence of the Church as a separate public institution not under state control was a key factor in the rise of the West.

Saint Ambrose, Bishop of Milan, prohibiting Emperor Theodosius from going into the Church.
This was different from the east (e.g. The Abbasid Empire, Safavid Persia, Imperial China), in which the church and the state were one. He seems to conflate religious and civil liberty, but, if you keep them separate, the problem is solved, the Church has no power to execute or silence anyone. What really helps liberty, including liberty of inquiry, is decentralized political authority.
Next, while he mentions it, he underestimates the value of the work of the monasteries in keeping ancient texts alive in the west. While there were obvious abuses of authority that Bernstein mentions, he undervalues the work of the Monastics in breaking out of the intellectual doldrums of the Medieval period.
I do not see an inevitable dichotomy between the Monastics and Aristotle.
As for the savagery in the sack of Beziers, I attribute that to a lack of Christian pity or charity and to the general savagery of warriors of the day. The fact that they resorted to a religious excuse says more about those soldiers than it does about the Church.
Religious differences are resorted to and exacerbated for political purposes worldwide. Look at Catholic France fighting on the side of the Protestant Dutch against Catholic Spain and Austria in the 30 Years' War, or France's alliance with the Muslim Ottoman Empire 1534-1798, or The Troubles in Northern Ireland up to the last couple of decades. Were these religious matters or political matters with a religious veneer?

Finally, I have to agree with Nate (which is surely a sign of the Apocalypse), Professor Bernstein went into this with an ax to grind (not that he dies not make many excellent points).
It is also a little ironic that he teaches at an institution founded by a Catholic Brotherhood.

Overall, though, I found this paper intriguing. Thanks for posting it.
 
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