Question: Why Auburn puts Dye on a pedestal and not Tubberville

I think it should be noted that a lot of the Auburn love for Pat Dye is a pretty new phenomenon, at least from the perspective of the general fan base. He stayed pretty close to the powers that be even after his firing and the Ramsey scandal, but the Auburn fan base really didn't start to accept him back into the fold and start to think highly of him once again until more than a decade after he left. Now he has somehow obtained the status of being an Auburn version of Yoda, but that wasn't always the case. There was a long period of emotions ranging from outright animosity to indifference by much of that fan base. It is easy to forget that all of these years later, but it most certainly happened.

Kind of figure the same will happen with Tuberville once he stops coaching and a few more years pass. Auburn fans will be talking about the six straight wins over 'Bama and the '04 team 50 years from now, so there is no reason to think that Tuberville won't also see the a reputation rebound with Auburn people just like Dye did.
 
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I agree with everything Selma said EXCEPT....getting cheated out of the NC. IMO Nebraska or Miami would have beaten them.

But whether either of those teams would have won or not is irrelevant. Auburn had the nation's best record (as did five or so teams) and played BY FAR - and I mean BY FAR - the toughest schedule of the bunch.


Besides that lackluster 9-7 win over Michigan doesn't do much to help their case.

They won their game. Nebraska scored 30 points and lost. Which is more important?

Michigan entered the game 9-2, so it isn't like they were chopped liver.

The mighty Bo Jackson couldn't get in the end zone once. Also Tubbs had the luck of Alabama being on probation. If he was still the HC at the barn, they would be on a 6 game losing streak right now. I don't think he would have gotten $cam.


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I'll leave it at that because I'm hardly any sort of Auburn apologist. But if Auburn was not robbed in 1983, then Alabama was not robbed in 1977, either. Because the scenario is exactly the same.
 
But whether either of those teams would have won or not is irrelevant. Auburn had the nation's best record (as did five or so teams) and played BY FAR - and I mean BY FAR - the toughest schedule of the bunch.




They won their game. Nebraska scored 30 points and lost. Which is more important?

Michigan entered the game 9-2, so it isn't like they were chopped liver.



I'll leave it at that because I'm hardly any sort of Auburn apologist. But if Auburn was not robbed in 1983, then Alabama was not robbed in 1977, either. Because the scenario is exactly the same.

Those are good points. However I have such little sympathy for them in that because Alabama was robbed in 1945, 1966, & 1977. So in this case they just need to suck it up.

Also my assumption would be because that Nebraska team was considered one of the "best ever" coming into the game. That and Miami stopped Tom Osborne's two point conversion attempt might have played into it. If simply goes for a tie than Nebraska is probably still crowned National Champs and the barn is left out no matter what.
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I'll leave it at that because I'm hardly any sort of Auburn apologist. But if Auburn was not robbed in 1983, then Alabama was not robbed in 1977, either. Because the scenario is exactly the same.

That's not particularly accurate. Aside from the probation and bowl ban (which obviously precluded a blowout victory in a major bowl game over a top opponent like we had in 1977), you're talking about a scenario where we were jumped late by a one-loss Notre Dame team after we pummeled Woody Hayes' Ohio State in the Sugar Bowl. Incidentally, Notre Dame lost that year to Ole Miss, which was a team we had beaten a week earlier in the season opener by three touchdowns. That really doesn't compare to what happened to Auburn in 1993.

I'm not going to dispute that the 1993 Auburn team was a good squad, but that was by no means a rob-job at the polls. They were unranked the first month of the season, didn't play in a conference championship game, didn't play in a bowl game, and in fact only beat, I think, two major conference teams that year that finished with a winning record (both of which, Alabama and Florida, were close wins at home). Undefeated or not, that's just not the resume of a team that deserves a national championship.

People forget this in hindsight given the modern prevalence of the conference -- S!E!C! and all that jazz -- but the SEC in 1993 was a pretty bad conference. Only four teams had a winning record that season (and Auburn didn't even play one of them, which was Tennessee) and I think Florida was the only that finished in the top ten.
 
That's not particularly accurate. Aside from the probation and bowl ban (which obviously precluded a blowout victory in a major bowl game over a top opponent like we had in 1977), you're talking about a scenario where we were jumped late by a one-loss Notre Dame team after we pummeled Woody Hayes' Ohio State in the Sugar Bowl. Incidentally, Notre Dame lost that year to Ole Miss, which was a team we had beaten a week earlier in the season opener by three touchdowns. That really doesn't compare to what happened to Auburn in 1993.

I'm not going to dispute that the 1993 Auburn team was a good squad, but that was by no means a rob-job at the polls. They were unranked the first month of the season, didn't play in a conference championship game, didn't play in a bowl game, and in fact only beat, I think, two major conference teams that year that finished with a winning record (both of which, Alabama and Florida, were close wins at home). Undefeated or not, that's just not the resume of a team that deserves a national championship.

People forget this in hindsight given the modern prevalence of the conference -- S!E!C! and all that jazz -- but the SEC in 1993 was a pretty bad conference. Only four teams had a winning record that season (and Auburn didn't even play one of them, which was Tennessee) and I think Florida was the only that finished in the top ten.

With all due respect - you're confusing 1983 with 1993.

And given Auburn's perpetual whining, I don't even blame you for it. I don't think even they can tell there's a big difference between those two years.
 
Those are good points. However I have such little sympathy for them in that because Alabama was robbed in 1945, 1966, & 1977. So in this case they just need to suck it up.

Also my assumption would be because that Nebraska team was considered one of the "best ever" king in to the game. That and Miami stopped Tom Osborne's two point conversion attempt might have played into it. If simply goes for a tie than Nebraska is probably still crowned National Champs and the barn is left out no matter what.
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Oh, I never said anything about sympathy for them....

They got robbed once. We got robbed twice. But I AM consistent about it.
 
This is the first time I recall anyone say that awburn got robbed of national title in 83. I've heard 2004 a zillion times.

That claim has been made for 30+ years now, and frankly it's a valid gripe. They went into the bowl game third, beat Michigan in the Sugar, and finished 11-1. The top two teams both lost in the bowls, and Auburn lost the national title when they were jumped by Miami, who came into the bowls ranked fifth but who beat Nebraska in the classic Orange Bowl game we've all seen the highlight of a thousand times.

Whole issue was that Nebraska was the "it" team. Came into the Orange Bowl at 11-0, undisputed number one team all season long, had the Heisman Trophy winner in Mike Rozier, and had basically annihilated every team on the schedule. When Miami took down that team, it was just a showstopper result, and it made Auburn beating a two-loss Michigan team in a low-scoring, ugly game look like an undercard fight. That's how Miami jumped Auburn and won the title, and it certainly didn't help them that NBC marketed and billed the Miami-Nebraska game as the national championship game, which was a claim that CBS (or it might have been ABC airing it at the time) couldn't really make for the Sugar Bowl because Michigan was ranked near the bottom of the top ten and wasn't legitimately in championship contention.

Again, though, it's a very valid gripe. Auburn went 11-1 with Bo Jackson and slew of other top players (Tommy Agee, Lionel James, Steve Wallace, etc.), and only lost to an 11-1 Texas team. Miami, on the other hand, had been blown out by a Florida team that ended up with two losses and a tie. I wouldn't say it's necessarily a robbery, per se, but admittedly they've got a very legitimate complaint and their fans were (and to an extent still are) quite vocal about it.

Truth be told, Auburn has a better claim to 1983 than they do 2004, and certainly infinitely better than 1993 (which is no claim at all, except to those floating in an ocean of orange-and-blue Kool-Aid).
 
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This is the first time I recall anyone say that awburn got robbed of national title in 83. I've heard 2004 a zillion times.

OK, let me explain Auburn logic for you (it's an insane subject, i know):

1) National championships do not "really" exist, they are just popularity contests of people actually "think" is the national champion. Alabama has no more national championships than Auburn does because they don't exist.

2) Real football actually started in 1993, when Pat Dye rose from the dead after three days and nights to become Terry Bowden. Since that time Auburn has more unbeaten seasons than Alabama (3-2), leads the Iron Bowl 12-9, has just as many Heisman winners. The only category Alabama leads Auburn in are national championships (which as stated earlier don't really exist) and probations, 3-0.

3) Alabama cheats to win, therefore, we have to cheat to win. But even though we do, our cheating is not as bad as their cheating.

4) Every child in Alabama dreams of growing up and coming to Auburn and throwing toilet paper in the trees.

5) Auburn was robbed of the national title in 1983-1993-2004 because the voters just hate us. Oh - and in 2004, we should get the trophy because USC was stripped of their title and OU got routed by USC.

Did I make it clear?
 
He is their Moses: he liberated them from the bondage of playing the Iron Bowl in Birmingham, and he slew evil Crimson Tide in the river of cowtown in 1989.
That is why he is so beloved by them.
 
Dye is their version of Jim Jones or David Koresh


1) He broke the Alabama streak, and had the revered "60 Minutes" answer to the question of how long it would take it to beat Alabama when hired, that they all hold so dear.

2) He got the Alabama game moved to Auburn every other year.

3) He got auburn people believing they were now Alabama's equal. Not true, nor realistic, but many there believe it, and fanatics with unrealistic beliefs are very dangerous.

4) As someone previously noted, he became their "martyr" when he was forced to resign, and his players walked out in Legion Field to play Alabama with helmets raised in tribute.


Bowden is reviled, and Tubbs viewed tepidly, because they would not do it the "Old auburn way" and distanced themselves from Godfather Dye and his many cronies that to this day populate Farmville.
 
That claim has been made for 30+ years now, and frankly it's a valid gripe.

Thank you. Too many Tide fans get caught up in "Auburn can't win" to make a rational judgment on that one.

They went into the bowl game third, beat Michigan in the Sugar, and finished 11-1. The top two teams both lost in the bowls, and Auburn lost the national title when they were jumped by Miami, who came into the bowls ranked fifth but who beat Nebraska in the classic Orange Bowl game we've all seen the highlight of a thousand times.

And I also realize that because Schenllenberger was Miami's coach, a lot of Tide fans were pulling for them to win it. Joe Namath, in fact, was on the Miami sidelines during that game (come to think of it, Suzy Kolber was a freshman at Miami and might well have been at that game. Hm.........)


Whole issue was that Nebraska was the "it" team. Came into the Orange Bowl at 11-0, undisputed number one team all season long, had the Heisman Trophy winner in Mike Rozier, and had basically annihilated every team on the schedule. When Miami took down that team, it was just a showstopper result, and it made Auburn beating a two-loss Michigan team in a low-scoring, ugly game look like an undercard fight. That's how Miami jumped Auburn and won the title, and it certainly didn't help them that NBC marketed and billed the Miami-Nebraska game as the national championship game, which was a claim that CBS (or it might have been ABC airing it at the time) couldn't really make for the Sugar Bowl because Michigan was ranked near the bottom of the top ten and wasn't legitimately in championship contention.

All excellent points. Then again, NBC tried to do the same thing with the 1985 Orange Bowl while the actual champions (BYU) were sitting at home watching the other big name teams play.

Again, though, it's a very valid gripe. Auburn went 11-1 with Bo Jackson and slew of other top players (Tommy Agee, Lionel James, Steve Wallace, etc.), and only lost to an 11-1 Texas team. Miami, on the other hand, had been blown out by a Florida team that ended up with two losses and a tie.

But it's even worse than that. All valid points and then supplemented with:

1) SEVEN of Auburn's opponents won AT LEAST EIGHT GAMES (back when there were only 11), including the final five in a row, only two of which were at home. Miami played three teams that won eight or more games, all at home, and went 2-1 against those.

2) Auburn and Miami's sole common opponent was Florida. The only game the Canes lost was to Florida, who drilled them, 28-3. Auburn beat Florida, 28-21. While I grant the transitive property is generally not applied, it does strengthen the argument.

3) Auburn played only two teams all year with a losing record, Ga Tech and MSU. Their seven bowl opponents went 4-3 but two of the losses were to OTHER Auburn opponents (Tenn over Maryland, UGA over Texas). And doesn't the fact Auburn beat UGA offset - to a point - their early loss to Texas? The whole Miami claim rests on "Miami lost early" and "Miami beat Nebraska," but Miami lost their first game and Auburn their second (hardly a significant argument) and Auburn couldn't play Nebraska because both teams were contractually obligated to certain bowl games. Miami basically lucked out that teams 1-4 (Nebraska, Texas, Auburn, Illinios) were all OBLIGATED to play elsewhere.

Again - I don't want to sound like an Auburn apologist or booster because I'm not, but anyone who says they were NOT robbed in 1983 has no business saying Alabama was not robbed in 1977. Plain and simple.


I wouldn't say it's necessarily a robbery, per se, but admittedly they've got a very legitimate complaint and their fans were (and to an extent still are) quite vocal about it.

Truth be told, Auburn has a better claim to 1983 than they do 2004, and certainly infinitely better than 1993 (which is no claim at all, except to those floating in an ocean of orange-and-blue Kool-Aid).

Haven't heard much about it but it WAS a long time ago. Heard a lot at the time, though.
 
I know I might take flame for this but I honestly want to know because I didn't start to watch football until 91. I was talking to some Auburn friends who said the best coaches to coach at Auburn where Jordan and Dye. I asked why not Tubberville and they said he didn't do anything as significant as the other two. So I looked and noticed Tubberville has a better winning percentage than Dye, an undefeated season (and some can argue a national champion claim), and a 7-3 record against Bama. all I see is Dye ended the 9 year streak, had more SEC titles, and put Auburn on probation with a 6-6 record against us. Tubbs also won games he probably shouldn't against us in 02,05, and 07. Don't get me wrong Im a die hard bama fan RTR!!!,I just don't get why they put Dye so head and shoulders over Tubberville.

Just an opinion, but Tubbs never embraced or kiss up to the Bobby Lowder Auburn Machine. Do remember the little plane ride to Louisville?
 
Thank you. Too many Tide fans get caught up in "Auburn can't win" to make a rational judgment on that one.



And I also realize that because Schenllenberger was Miami's coach, a lot of Tide fans were pulling for them to win it. Joe Namath, in fact, was on the Miami sidelines during that game (come to think of it, Suzy Kolber was a freshman at Miami and might well have been at that game. Hm.........)




All excellent points. Then again, NBC tried to do the same thing with the 1985 Orange Bowl while the actual champions (BYU) were sitting at home watching the other big name teams play.



But it's even worse than that. All valid points and then supplemented with:

1) SEVEN of Auburn's opponents won AT LEAST EIGHT GAMES (back when there were only 11), including the final five in a row, only two of which were at home. Miami played three teams that won eight or more games, all at home, and went 2-1 against those.

2) Auburn and Miami's sole common opponent was Florida. The only game the Canes lost was to Florida, who drilled them, 28-3. Auburn beat Florida, 28-21. While I grant the transitive property is generally not applied, it does strengthen the argument.

3) Auburn played only two teams all year with a losing record, Ga Tech and MSU. Their seven bowl opponents went 4-3 but two of the losses were to OTHER Auburn opponents (Tenn over Maryland, UGA over Texas). And doesn't the fact Auburn beat UGA offset - to a point - their early loss to Texas? The whole Miami claim rests on "Miami lost early" and "Miami beat Nebraska," but Miami lost their first game and Auburn their second (hardly a significant argument) and Auburn couldn't play Nebraska because both teams were contractually obligated to certain bowl games. Miami basically lucked out that teams 1-4 (Nebraska, Texas, Auburn, Illinios) were all OBLIGATED to play elsewhere.

Again - I don't want to sound like an Auburn apologist or booster because I'm not, but anyone who says they were NOT robbed in 1983 has no business saying Alabama was not robbed in 1977. Plain and simple.




Haven't heard much about it but it WAS a long time ago. Heard a lot at the time, though.

I thought they got robbed in 83 as well. they beat some mighty good teams that year, and losing at Texas, at the time, was a fairly common result.
 
Thank you. Too many Tide fans get caught up in "Auburn can't win" to make a rational judgment on that one.



And I also realize that because Schenllenberger was Miami's coach, a lot of Tide fans were pulling for them to win it. Joe Namath, in fact, was on the Miami sidelines during that game (come to think of it, Suzy Kolber was a freshman at Miami and might well have been at that game. Hm.........)




All excellent points. Then again, NBC tried to do the same thing with the 1985 Orange Bowl while the actual champions (BYU) were sitting at home watching the other big name teams play.



But it's even worse than that. All valid points and then supplemented with:

1) SEVEN of Auburn's opponents won AT LEAST EIGHT GAMES (back when there were only 11), including the final five in a row, only two of which were at home. Miami played three teams that won eight or more games, all at home, and went 2-1 against those.

2) Auburn and Miami's sole common opponent was Florida. The only game the Canes lost was to Florida, who drilled them, 28-3. Auburn beat Florida, 28-21. While I grant the transitive property is generally not applied, it does strengthen the argument.

3) Auburn played only two teams all year with a losing record, Ga Tech and MSU. Their seven bowl opponents went 4-3 but two of the losses were to OTHER Auburn opponents (Tenn over Maryland, UGA over Texas). And doesn't the fact Auburn beat UGA offset - to a point - their early loss to Texas? The whole Miami claim rests on "Miami lost early" and "Miami beat Nebraska," but Miami lost their first game and Auburn their second (hardly a significant argument) and Auburn couldn't play Nebraska because both teams were contractually obligated to certain bowl games. Miami basically lucked out that teams 1-4 (Nebraska, Texas, Auburn, Illinios) were all OBLIGATED to play elsewhere.

Again - I don't want to sound like an Auburn apologist or booster because I'm not, but anyone who says they were NOT robbed in 1983 has no business saying Alabama was not robbed in 1977. Plain and simple.




Haven't heard much about it but it WAS a long time ago. Heard a lot at the time, though.

Nebraska of 1983 was being touted as perhaps the best team of all time. There was no way the aubs were going to hold off Miami if they were able to beat the "Juggernaut". IMO, none of the teams ranked 2-4 would have beaten Nebraska, and may not have been able to stay close.

I still believe that tornado cost Alabama a very real chance to beat auburn and render this discussion null.
 
Nebraska of 1983 was being touted as perhaps the best team of all time. There was no way the aubs were going to hold off Miami if they were able to beat the "Juggernaut". IMO, none of the teams ranked 2-4 would have beaten Nebraska, and may not have been able to stay close.

I still believe that tornado cost Alabama a very real chance to beat auburn and render this discussion null.

I was at that game, and the storm hit just before we got what would have been a gale wind in the 4th quarter.

In the Auburn myths, Dye did two invaluable things.

1. He looked Alabama dead in the eye. Auburn led well into the 4th quarter in 1981, then exploited an extraordinary number of our mistakes plus lucky breaks, or else Bo over the top in '82 would have only cut our lead to two touchdowns. Still, Dye is credited by the agrarians with putting the stake in the Bryant Era.

2. And at least as importantly, he will always remain immortal by "forcing" Alabama to finally come to Auburn. Even after big-boy schools started coming to Lee County, Alabama never would. So when undefeated Alabama came to AU in '89 and lost, the circle was complete.

Tubs may have beaten a blood drained rival for six straight years, but he never fit in as an Auburn man, at least in the ways they like to appear to the rest of the world. Pat Dye does.
 
Selma, I watched the 1982 game a while back. Right before the "Bo over the top" Jeremiah Castile intercepted a pass that would have let Alabama run out the clock but he was flagged for PI which looked like a very bad call. The ref who did that turned out to be a former GT player from the early 60's and was behind the barn QB when he threw it. Can you validate this??


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Selma, I watched the 1982 game a while back. Right before the "Bo over the top" Jeremiah Castile intercepted a pass that would have let Alabama run out the clock but he was flagged for PI which looked like a very bad call. The ref who did that turned out to be a former GT player from the early 60's and was behind the barn QB when he threw it. Can you validate this??



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I'm headed to the DVD right now. I did not see that game live as I lived in West Germany back when such existed. Bear with me.
 

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