How does CMS really compare to others?

[Crimson Hawk]

How does Coach Shula compare to........ for example, Spurrier, Saban, or any of today's generally well regarded D-1 coaches? How about Coach Bryant?

But, lets compare apples to apples, so to speak. Let's compare on an even basis. I don't have the stats at hand (I'm sure some of you are much better than I at finding these things), but let's compare them at the same stage of their careers, which is with ........what 4 years HC experience? I know I'd be interested in seeing those stats.

 

[rgw]

Right now, I'd say he compares poorly.

 

[GrayTide]

In Coach Bryant's 4th year he won a NC. Saban won a NC in his 4th year at LSU. It took Spurrier 6 years at UF to win his first NC, but he won at least 3 maybe 4 SEC championships in those 6 years. He won his first SEC championship in his second year at UF. After 4 years CMS is 26-23. Sorry this was after they came to the SEC, I mis read your time frame of comparison.

 

[NYBamaFan]

I don't really care how he compares to them when they were early in their coaching careers. Today, Shula is not even in the same area code. By comparing them early, you might make the mistake of assuming that Shula will, some day, be a great head coach. He might, but we have seen no evidence that he will. Far more head coaches wash out than have success at the Div 1 level - much less the type of success that leads to national championships.

Look up the numbers if you like, but at this point, it is a meaningless exercise.

 

[wastedmason]

I would bet ya this, coach Bryant being the AD would have fired himself as the head coach if he had ever lost four in a row to Auburn and LSU!

 

[CrimsonDuck]

CMS is a good person. He is the type of person that we need at this university. But from a motivational point of view as well as an X's and O's point of view, he is average at best. He is not head coach material at an SEC school, or, at least at this point in his career, any school in my opinion. He can develop QB's and he should be a QB coach in the NFL. Jay Fiedler was at his best when CMS was coaching him. But he just doesn't cut it as an OC or a head coach....YET.

Like Ron Zook, Mike Dubose, Bob Davie, John Blake, Keith Gilbertson, Greg Robinson (currently at Syracuse), and others...add Mike Shula to the list of assistant coaches that are just that...assistant coaches. Nothing more. As a former QB, he knows how to coach them, and coach them well...He is not a head coach though.

 

[Crimson Hawk]

CMS is a good person. He is the type of person that we need at this university. But from a motivational point of view as well as an X's and O's point of view, he is average at best. He is not head coach material at an SEC school, or, at least at this point in his career, any school in my opinion. He can develop QB's and he should be a QB coach in the NFL. Jay Fiedler was at his best when CMS was coaching him. But he just doesn't cut it as an OC or a head coach....YET.

Like Ron Zook, Mike Dubose, Bob Davie, John Blake, Keith Gilbertson, Greg Robinson (currently at Syracuse), and others...add Mike Shula to the list of assistant coaches that are just that...assistant coaches. Nothing more. As a former QB, he knows how to coach them, and coach them well...He is not a head coach though.

Duck, I respect your opinion, but there are 10 thousand threads (it seems like) all about how bad a coach CMS is, but that's not what I'm asking here. I also don't doubt CMS was/is not ready to be a HC at this level. Just interested in knowing where he stood in relation to others at this stage of his career. Probably shouldn't have started a thread without doing the research, but I figured some of the guys would already know.

 

[Bama Torch in Pcola]

It's my belief that a good head coach will win early. Coach Bryant won at Maryland, then at Kentucky. Darryl Royal and Bud Wilkinson each won early as well. Joe Paterno struggled his first couple of years, but took off shortly thereafter. Bobby Bowden won at West Virginia, and it only took him 2 or 3 years to start winning big at FSU. Osborne at Nebraska won from day 1, of course the cupboard wasn't exactly bare when he took over. At the big time programs there is usually enough talent to win quickly. Look at Oklahoma under Stoops. That program had completely bottomed out due to bad coaching; but they had the talent, because within two years they won the national championship, and have been a power ever since. All in all, I can't think of a great head coach who didn't win right out of the gate. There are exceptions to the rule, but these occur at places where there has been no tradition upon which to draw.

Beamer at Va Tech
Snyder at Kansas St

 

[stallingsstyle]

In Coach Bryant's 4th year he won a NC. Saban won a NC in his 4th year at LSU. It took Spurrier 6 years at UF to win his first NC, but he won at least 3 maybe 4 SEC championships in those 6 years. He won his first SEC championship in his second year at UF. After 4 years CMS is 26-23. Sorry this was after they came to the SEC, I mis read your time frame of comparison.

Everyone of the coaches on your list had head coaching exp. before joining the colleges where they won N.C.
Css was the only one to come in under a probation period, but it still was nothing like shula's.
Personally I don't see it very fair to compare shula to coaching legends and future legends, in his fourth year of his career.
I will say in shula's young career he compares pretty good with'em in recruiting and we better hope we get spurrier if we're going to recruit in florida without having to resort to paying players again. When was the last time we've had the quality of qb's on the roster that we've had the last two years, or a recruiting class that's had players come in from coast to coast.

 

[TommyMac]

I honestly don't know how you would find anyone comparable to Shula to make a comparison with. I can't think of anyone with such an undistinguished background that was given the reins of a premier program. Usually someone has to excel as an assistant or HC at a lesser program to be hired to head a major program. It may have happened way back in the day. but I can't think of any recently.

 

[BhamTide]

How does Coach Shula compare to........ for example, Spurrier, Saban, or any of today's generally well regarded D-1 coaches? How about Coach Bryant?

QUOTE]

Help me out here, Crimson Hawk. Which of the aforementioned coaches took over for a program that had 2 head coaches in the previous 9 months? Which of these coaches began their career with out the benefit of a spring training under their belt? And, here's the biggie, which of these coaches played their first four years without the equilivent of an entire recruiting class?

Just want to make sure I give you a fair assesment.

 

[BAMAHD]

Right now the only coach i can compare him with is maybe Freddie Kitchens. Both ex-players and QB's with minimal coaching experience. And at this point i'd give Freddie the nod.

 

[LrgK9]

Similarities between Ray Goff and Mike Shula

Alumn.
Beloved Home Town Hero!
Great guy.
Mommas love him.
Played QB.
Good at recruiting.
Players coach.
Loved by many.
Success wished by nearly all fan base.
Hired as understanding and valuing the culture.

Paid Lots and Lots of Money.

Team lack of on field discipline at times.
Unintelligible decisions at crucial moments in games.
Hired his mentors and friends as assistants.
Loyal to a fault to mentors and friends hired as assistants.
Getting beat regularly by 4 or 5 closest rivals.
Can't beat the teams he's supposed to beat.
Clearly out coached more than occasionally.
Second half adjustments and 4th quarter adjustments are ineffective or non-existent.
Firing him will cause extreme division in fan base.

"The feeling throughout the Ray Goff era was that the 'Dawgs were going to go 10-2 every few years and be struggling towards bowl-eligibility the rest of the time. During the Jim Donnan era was that the Red and Black were going to be in the 8-4 or 9-3 range forever . . . rarely worse than that, but never better than that, as though Donnan were the R.C. Slocum of the S.E.C.
With Mark Richt, though, pay the price of an occasional six-seven-eight win season sandwiched in between lengthy stretches of national success."

Is Shula a Goff type coach? Does he need to stay or go?
Ray Goff vs Auburn, Florida, Tennessee = 3-13
Mike Shula vs. AU, ARK, LSU, UT, UF, UGA = 3-18

Still to this day, personally don't feel really solid about cutting Goff loose.

Here is a particularly incisive quote from Steve Spurrier that helped seal Ray Goff's fate:
When asked if his Florida team would beat Georgia one year, Spurrier responded with the question, "Is Ray Goff still the head coach there?"

Wonder what Tommie Tuby's opinion is...

 

[stallingsstyle]

I honestly don't know how you would find anyone comparable to Shula to make a comparison with. I can't think of anyone with such an undistinguished background that was given the reins of a premier program. Usually someone has to excel as an assistant or HC at a lesser program to be hired to head a major program. It may have happened way back in the day. but I can't think of any recently.

What you sayed is so true and i can say that everyone on this board has had a job that they wasn't qualified to do. No one can fault him for trying and I personnally think he deserves a chance to coach the redshirts and greyshirts he's brought in, also shake up the staff if he wants too.

 

[mparker2997]

I would like to see the comparison as well but just for entertainment purposes only. I would not make a decision based on it. It does not seem that anyone is interested in looking it up plus the comparison could never be "apples to apples" considering the condition of the program when CMS took over.

 

[stallingsstyle]

Re: Similarities between Ray Goff and Mike Shula

Wonder what Tommie Tuby's opinion is...

I'll take 100 they keep him. Does anyone dare to go against the riverboat gambler.

Winning cures everything, look at my lucky ---. I'm the riverboat gambler.

 

[BAMARICH]

Don't really have the stats to compare CMS with other guys. However, I will say one thing regarding the comparisons... a lot can be learned about a coach by the comments of his former players. Go back and talk to former players of CPB, CSS, etc. and you find (for the most part) a respectful awe about their feelings. After four years here, how many times have you heard former Bama players raving about CMS? Not trying to point out anything tongue in cheek... just my observations regarding these other coaches, at any point during their storied careers.

 

[runtheoption22]

Don't really have the stats to compare CMS with other guys. However, I will say one thing regarding the comparisons... a lot can be learned about a coach by the comments of his former players. Go back and talk to former players of CPB, CSS, etc. and you find (for the most part) a respectful awe about their feelings. After four years here, how many times have you heard former Bama players raving about CMS? Not trying to point out anything tongue in cheek... just my observations regarding these other coaches, at any point during their storied careers.

In my opinion, it's "dad/grandad" vs. "best bud"....... I'll take the first with my head coach.

 

[Crimson Hawk]

How does Coach Shula compare to........ for example, Spurrier, Saban, or any of today's generally well regarded D-1 coaches? How about Coach Bryant?

QUOTE]

Help me out here, Crimson Hawk. Which of the aforementioned coaches took over for a program that had 2 head coaches in the previous 9 months? Which of these coaches began their career with out the benefit of a spring training under their belt? And, here's the biggie, which of these coaches played their first four years without the equilivent of an entire recruiting class? Just want to make sure I give you a fair assesment.

Thanks, BhamTide, for leading this thread in the direction I was eventually going to take it. You are exactly right, there is no fair asessment, because no one that I've ever heard of has faced the kind of adversity that Mike Shula has faced.

Now before anyone "reminds me' that CPB took over a pretty sorry mess at Bama, (& he did), but by that time he was already a seasoned HC.

Maybe it was just too much to ask of someone with so little experience, but CMS certainly didn't back down from the challenge, & we didn't have a whole lot of other choices, did we? Personally, I think everyone involved did the best that could've been done, under the circumstances.....Mike Shula included.

 

[Rainmaker27]

Thanks, BhamTide, for leading this thread in the direction I was eventually going to take it. You are exactly right, there is no fair asessment, because no one that I've ever heard of has faced the kind of adversity that Mike Shula has faced.

Now before anyone "reminds me' that CPB took over a pretty sorry mess at Bama, (& he did), but by that time he was already a seasoned HC.

Maybe it was just too much to ask of someone with so little experience, but CMS certainly didn't back down from the challenge, & we didn't have a whole lot of other choices, did we? Personally, I think everyone involved did the best that could've been done, under the circumstances.....Mike Shula included.

Are you intending to suggest that Shula has done as well under the circumstances as could be expected of anyone? Or are you suggesting that Shula has done the best that he (personally) could do?

If the former, it's not safe to be eating wild mushrooms.

If the latter, isn't the salient question whether or not Mike Shula's best is good enough?