The Church Thread: Chapter I Verse 2?
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Pope at Palm Sunday Mass: ‘Jesus does not listen to prayers of those who wage war’ - Vatican News
Pope Leo XIV presides at Mass on Palm Sunday of the Lord's Passion, and reflects on Jesus as the King of Peace who rejects war and refuses to listen ...
www.vaticannews.va
Pope Leo really kicked the hornets nest with this one. And look, I'm pretty anti-war, myself, but this statement is just a weeee bit strong for my taste. I long for the day when the church finally divorces itself from politics and concentrates on more relevant issues (like cleaning up the hierarchy and focusing on the great commission.) And if you absolutely have to get political, do it for more worthwhile causes, like bringing attention to Christian persecution.
It's a moronic statement that is not biblical. Kinda like the idea of the pope in the first place...
Even a satire article is more biblically grounded than the pope:
Pope Leo Explains God Does Not Listen To People Who Wage War So Long As You Don’t Count Moses, David, Joshua, Elijah, Saul, Gideon, Samson, Or Anyone Else In Bible
VATICAN CITY — Pope Leo boldly proclaimed today that God does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war, so long as you don't count King David, or Joshua, or Gideon, or Samson, or Elijah, or Hezekiah, or any of those other people in the Bible.
babylonbee.com
Here is an AI summation of Catholic "Just War Doctrine."
I see nothing here with which I (or any reasonable person) would disagree. And I'm willing to concede that much of what gets reported about various popes is often a misquote, a misunderstanding or just plain wrong. (This happened to Pope Francis a LOT) but this came straight from the Vatican website, so I have to assume the quote is accurate. Leo is still fairly new, but by now he surely understands that every utterance he makes will likely become international news if he isn't careful.
I see nothing here with which I (or any reasonable person) would disagree. And I'm willing to concede that much of what gets reported about various popes is often a misquote, a misunderstanding or just plain wrong. (This happened to Pope Francis a LOT) but this came straight from the Vatican website, so I have to assume the quote is accurate. Leo is still fairly new, but by now he surely understands that every utterance he makes will likely become international news if he isn't careful.
If you embrace a trinitarian point of view, which I assume the pope would, how can you say this with a straight face. If Jesus is God in your belief system then didn't He order the Israelites to conquer the promised land, and didn't he invoke the plague of the first born in Exodus, and didn't he tell David to conquer the enemies of Israel?Pope at Palm Sunday Mass: ‘Jesus does not listen to prayers of those who wage war’ - Vatican News
Pope Leo XIV presides at Mass on Palm Sunday of the Lord's Passion, and reflects on Jesus as the King of Peace who rejects war and refuses to listen ...
Pope Leo really kicked the hornets nest with this one. And look, I'm pretty anti-war, myself, but this statement is just a weeee bit strong for my taste. I long for the day when the church finally divorces itself from politics and concentrates on more relevant issues (like cleaning up the hierarchy and focusing on the great commission.) And if you absolutely have to get political, do it for more worthwhile causes, like bringing attention to Christian persecution.
That bit about the ear of the servant that Peter chopped off is so out of context it's not funny. It was Christ's time to die on the cross. He was going willingly. That can't be taken as an example for all times and circumstances.
Here's my favorite, “He revealed the gentle face of God, who always rejects violence,” has this guy read the Book of Revelation? Jesus literally kills an entire army with his words. The birds and animals are told to gather for a feast. What in the sale of indulgences is happening here? I would say flooding the world was pretty violent. I would also say the sacking of Jerusalem by Babylon was pretty violent as well, and it's clear in the Book of Isaiah that God is sending the Babylonians as judgment on Israel. My personal favorite is when Jesus made a whip and then proceeded to run the vendors and moneychangers out of the temple with it. Coming at people with a whip seems kind of violent to me.
Now no one has to believe any of this or that God exists at all, but for a pope to have that little of an understanding of God and what the Bible says He has done and will do is shocking, or he's just a little pansy that's too scared to talk about how the Bible truly speaks about God.
It's the latter, not the former. The man is highly educated; I'll give him that all day long. The problem is his entire generation. What the Boomers have done, not just to society, but to the church is borderline unforgivable. There are a TON of Catholics walking around who genuinely wish Vatican II had never happened and the longer I observe, the more tempted I am to agree with them.
As a Catholic who follows a ton of Catholic accounts on X, let me assure you that he has been getting called out for this consistently. Will it matter? Probably not, but the church has survived worse popes than Francis and Leo. It has survived worse periods than this silly social-gospel delusion that is taking over everywhere. Everything is cyclical, especially when you're talking about a church as ancient as the Catholic Church.
And honestly, I think I'm starting to see it happen in real time. The younger set are rejecting modernism and embracing more traditional Catholic values. The sheer number of conversions happening as we speak is blowing the doors off some parish churches; they literally can't keep up. These are hopeful signs my friends.
I didn't want to start a separate thread since this is dealing with all things "church". A lot of churches now have "security teams" made up of members of the church who are responsible for "security" during the service. In many cases, these security team members are carrying a firearm (pistol). I'm not talking about churches that hire off duty police or sheriff deputies to do security. I'm talking about regular citizens who have nothing to do with law enforcement.
My question is, from an insurance perspective, do the insurance companies who carry the policies of these churches know these non law enforcement members are carrying pistols and if something happened to where there was an accidental shooting of a member during a "hostile situation" that broke out during the service, would the insurance companies cover damages or injuries?
My question is, from an insurance perspective, do the insurance companies who carry the policies of these churches know these non law enforcement members are carrying pistols and if something happened to where there was an accidental shooting of a member during a "hostile situation" that broke out during the service, would the insurance companies cover damages or injuries?
TBH, that sounds like something that could only be answered with litigation. I'm reasonably sure that polling among insurance agents/attorneys would yield opinions that are all over the map. Statistically speaking, surely churches are still considered among the safest places a person can be, so the idea of needing armed security feels like overkill to me.
It is common in our area to have an off duty officer watching the parking lot, and this is among all denominations. We live in a high crime city and years ago there was a big rash of car beak-ins in church parking lots while services were going on. So, churches started hiring off duty officers to patrol the parking lot during worship services. Then, as church shootings started to see an uptick, the mindset shifted from not just securing the parking lot because of car theft, but securing the sanctuary just in case someone decides to shoot up the service.
The church I attend does both. We have an off duty deputy as well as we have "security" in the form of men in the church that ride golf carts and sit in strategic areas of the church. You do not have to be armed to be a part of the "security team", but almost all are armed. We have notified our insurance carrier and have given them our written security plan. You can get additional coverage for a few thousand dollars a year to cover the security team liability.
The other part is we have armed people in the church that aren't a part of security. I couldn't tell you how many people are carrying in the church. I carry every Sunday and I'm not par of security. I live in the Free State of Florida and a rural area to boot so guns are everywhere and a large percentage carry regularly.
There are more church shootings than you realize. It's a soft target where children and the elderly are gathered in numbers. People that can't defend themselves or easily escape. Any church worth its salt has a security plan and people in place to defend those that can't defend themselves. DHS has resources and recommendations on what churches should do.
I'm not one who pretends to be qualified to talk much about religion. I was a staunch atheist until I met my future wife and saw how her faith (Catholicism) led her for persevere through incredible hardship, sustain her while she emigrated to this country to pursue a career (a "life" as Lan calls it), and to return much of her wealth to those less fortunate so that they may improve themselves. "God gave me a gift; I must share this gift to honor God." I can do nothing but admire that and model my actions after hers.
What led me away from religion in my youth was all the blatant hypocrisy and people using religion as a justification for their own self-serving beliefs. Why be educated on a subject or strive to be better if God says what you are doing is just fine? I just always had the idea that Man is supposed to strive to be more God-like, not dumb everything down so that God is more man-like. My religious experience in my youth was quite Kafka-esque.
I have respect for anyone who devoutly follows a religion that leads them to make the world a better place. I don't subscribe to a particular faith. Hopefully, I'll get there. In the meantime, I just try to do as much good as I can.
What led me away from religion in my youth was all the blatant hypocrisy and people using religion as a justification for their own self-serving beliefs. Why be educated on a subject or strive to be better if God says what you are doing is just fine? I just always had the idea that Man is supposed to strive to be more God-like, not dumb everything down so that God is more man-like. My religious experience in my youth was quite Kafka-esque.
I have respect for anyone who devoutly follows a religion that leads them to make the world a better place. I don't subscribe to a particular faith. Hopefully, I'll get there. In the meantime, I just try to do as much good as I can.
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Sounds a lot like what I went through. I could never wrap my mind around the idea that truth could be found in a religion that had thousands of denominations all teaching variations on a theme. My mind was a little more rigid back then and this held for years and years. It wouldn't occur to me until much later in life that the pursuit of that truth is far more important than the discovery itself. In chapter 1 of the Church Thread, I likened my situation to Wile E. Coyote, who never actually attains his goal, but is ultimately defined by his pursuit of it.
What I DID know was that I was not going to join a church based on Pascal's Wager (much like Scott Adams did just before his unfortunate passing.) I've always been a pragmatist, but this approach is too much even for me. It took a lot of time, but I eventually softened my lawyerly approach to scripture and spirituality and learned to embrace faith and love. It was only when that particular dam broke that things changed "for real." I still have my moments of doubt, but pushing them away does get easier over time.
As for the hypocrisy that has turned you off from religion, I went through that, too. However, this is nothing new and it existed long before the church had even been established. Why did the Pharisees loathe Jesus as much as they did? Because he called them out on the hypocritical horse crap they had been pulling for a long, long time. Sure, they would conveniently trot out the law when it suited their purposes (in this case, going after Jesus.) but everyone knew what the score was and modern Bible readers will pick up on that in seconds as well. It's important to remember that the church is not a showcase for saints, but a hospital for sinners. Like a friend told me once, "I'd rather go to church with a hypocrite than go to hell with him."
Anyway, our individual journeys never end until we close our eyes for good. One thing I will say is this: you are clearly a good person and doing good things without the expectation of getting anything in return. One could make an argument that you are more "Christ-like" than many professing believers out there.
It took years, but I finally cornered my ex-wife in a situation where I could say my piece, and it was glorious. I unloaded on her - and by name every member of her family, quite frankly - about their amusing theological flexibility on issues, most notably divorce. I can't repeat it here - it was sprinkled with F bombs and language that would get me expelled from the seminary - but my central point was, "Every one of you makes up your doctrine as you go. You don't believe in divorce except adultery - until, by God, you come up with a reason you want one and then voila! There's a justification right there in the Bible for what you want to do! You find it between the lines of the Old Testament that it's somehow there, and you go on with your life, God is on your side."
I've watched this with every member of her family AND her circle of friends for the last 40 years. And I've watched it firsthand in churches - and you'll notice an AMAZING thing...the church ALWAYS sides with the one who has the most money they contribute to the church!!!! (Yes, poliitics is a thing!).
Her stepfather was raised Louisiana French Catholic and watching him defend his four marriages while simultaneously criticizing some married minister who was divorced 30 years ago before he was even a Christian was always a real hoot. (Turns out he also fathered an out of wedlock child in the 60s who had Down's syndrome that he never paid support, but I digress).
I understand people are human, people are sinners, people make mistakes. I also cringe at the seeming pride a number of them have in their testimony, when they were druggies, hoo-ahs, pimps, and drunkards, and they talk about it like it was cool....all while denying it (there are others you can just tell it's not their favorite thing and only comes up when it's two of you and you're trying to relate).
But you don't get to say something is a sin and then miraculously rewrite your Bible to keep what you're doing from being sin, either.
And at that point, don't talk to me about "what God has done in my life" when you haven't even come to grips with the reality of what you've done, either.
It is understandable how unbelievers can look at the lives of some Christians and never darken the door of a church. However, look at it like this. If someone was performing a cover of a great singer and mutilated the song, who would you blame, the person performing the cover or the band who orignially sang the song? I wouldn't make a judgment about Jesus based off of bad covers by people saying they are followers of Him.
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I try to measure my faith not by what others around me do, but by what Christ and his apostles did and tell me to do. People let you down constantly. It sounds like your wife is a great lady.
One of the most annoying things that converts routinely see are these cradle-Catholics who, despite going to Catholic school for 12 years and early catechesis, know next to nothing about church teaching. They show up twice per year (Christmas and Easter) and call themselves Catholic despite the fact that nothing in their life reflects it. And then with a straight face, want to blame the church for their ignorance.
This usually comes up when they get caught flat-footed by some Jehovah's Witness or fundamentalist door-knocker who converses with them about their beliefs and why their unsuspecting mark should come and see for themselves how to "find Jesus." And it often works, too. Next thing you know, they've joined up and now feel the need to go "save" the poor, deluded Catholics from the faith of their fathers by arguing against beliefs they never understood in the first place.
Anyway, every time I see some yutz who clearly isn't living according to Catholic teaching referring to himself or herself as Catholic, I just want to grab them by the lapels and scream, "STOP CALLING YOURSELF THAT!!" I can't do that, of course, but if a person isn't going to at least try to live to a certain standard, I wish they would just drop the word Catholic out of their vocabulary altogether.
Please forgive me if I'm off base here. I just find religion fascinating and like these conversations. I am far from an expert though and am obviously biased by my atheism.
Most of your examples seem to be God specifically rendering some form of judgment. Certainly that seems to be the case in Revelation.
Meanwhile, the Pope seems more focused on human initiated wars. That does not necessarily mean God has never initiated war or violence. I think the point is more that humans cannot start wars then claim this is God's war. To summarize, I think his point is that it is a big leap for those starting these wars to assume their decisions are biblical judgment, not that God can never issue judgment through violence.
I do think the pope could have been more clear in his wording though and I could be completely off.
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