Should you be able to buy and sell kidneys?

G-VilleTider · Jul 24, 2017

There was a recent thread about having a choice over one's own body (where my opinion was clearly in the minority) and it got me to thinking about this topic. I am curious if my opinion on this is more mainstream or just as out there.

As a libertarian leaning person, I absolutely think it should be legal. I know those against this would differ from me on the moral and ethical consequences of legalizing the sale of organs, but it would, without question, save thousands of lives every year. And as long as the donor is of legal age and sound mind, why shouldn't that person be allowed to do as he or she see's fit with his own body? The list of people waiting for a kidney is growing fast and the wait time is increasing leading to more people dying of a preventable death due to laws. (BTW, aren't laws supposed to protect people, not kill them?) It would lead to fewer people being killed worldwide for their organs (rare, I know, but stating it preemptively as I have heard people say it would lead to an increase, which simply isn't true). We already allow people to give a kidney free of charge so why not allow them to be paid? Besides the thousands of recipeants whose lives would be saved every year, the money the donors would receive would likely save some lives as well.

This isn't only academic for me. There is a very sweet 12 year old boy in my town who is on dialysis and the transplant list. His father is a doctor and is doing everything he can for him, but his odds are long. If he dies, it will be from stupid laws not disease.

joooko · Jul 25, 2017

A very difficult question. Can it become an opportunity for not very responsible people to get easy money? Like policies when you are paid for giving birth to a second child and more. I'm not sure that's a very good idea. But on the other hand, it might give a chance for close relatives or those who are ready for such a sacrifice to save lives. I dunno. If it is legalized it should be very well regulated which usually implies a lot of documents and checks and so on, and that will probably make those who need the organs wait longer and adds more pressure on everyone. I don't know man.

And if it's legal what should be the price? :conf2:

Would you sell yours for the price of a house like this for example?

Intl.Aperture · Jul 25, 2017

Isn't this already being done to an extent?

Can't women sell their eggs (legally) to the tune of roughly $8-$14k a pop? They call it "donation compensation" just like they call prostitution on camera "porn", but we all know what it is.

A kidney, in some ways, could be viewed as more of a significant contribution due to the risk of donating as well as it's daily use.

Ignoring the red tape nightmare it would cause and focusing just on the moral aspect I suppose, in theory, that I don't have a problem with it. I'm really thinking it through now for the first time. When anything goes up for sale there is a sudden gap for illegality and the breaking of rules. When you are dealing with living people's organs the seriousness of those illegalities are magnified. I can picture human trafficking operations being thrilled to have new revenue sources.

I think, G-ville, that you'll run into a smidge of the same argument from the other thread. Jooko even hinted to it but that idea of "selling under duress." I'm not sure I buy it for this scenario but I think we could all admit that there would be people in dire economic straits who ought not part with a kidney but do anyways because they need the cash. I personally think it's up to them but I can empathize with those of the persuasion that allowing this avenue is unseemly and, in a way, exploitative.

I may post more as I wrap my mind around it and read what others have to say.

AV8N · Jul 25, 2017

Some possible downsides I see are:
1) Bidding wars between possible recipients as the seller tries to get the most for their troubles. If you don't have any money to bid, tough luck, as you'll have to wait for an altruistic donor.
2) Human trafficking. It already happens underground, but I suspect it would actually grow if payments were legalized. For comparison, in places where prostitution is legal, pimps didn't go away, they just got legitimized.

Some of these concerns could possibly be mitigated through regulation, but that's not very libertarian, is it?

Intl.Aperture · Jul 25, 2017

AV8N said:
Some possible downsides I see are:
1) Bidding wars between possible recipients as the seller tries to get the most for their troubles. If you don't have any money to bid, tough luck, as you'll have to wait for an altruistic donor.
2) Human trafficking. It already happens underground, but I suspect it would actually grow if payments were legalized. For comparison, in places where prostitution is legal, pimps didn't go away, they just got legitimized.

Some of these concerns could possibly be mitigated through regulation, but that's not very libertarian, is it?

For the first concern I would think, as a basic rule, people could not sell their kidney directly from one individual to another, like Ebay. It would have to be through a designated intermediate.

Bama Reb · Jul 25, 2017

Mrs. Reb has lost function of her kidneys and must undergo dialysis 3x a week. Because she suffers from diabetes and chronic heart failure, she is not a candidate for kidney transplant. If she were, and the option was available, I would gladly buy a new kidney for her. As it is, we both make the best of a bad situation, and hope for the best.

hollisx4 · Jul 25, 2017

IMO I don't understand why people think that government has ANY role in commerce between supposedly free people?

chanson78 · Jul 25, 2017

My concern is that someone when young may sell their kidney, then as they age realize it was a bad idea due to health issues. Insurance is then responsible for that healthcare. The potential exists for someone to make a quick buck early, then make a lot of people pay for their care later.

If the law was such that you could sell a kidney now, but any future kidney related health issues were not covered by insurance, then I don't see why it would be a problem.

92tide · Jul 25, 2017

hollisx4 said:
IMO I don't understand why people think that government has ANY role in commerce between supposedly free people?

well, some role was actually laid out in the constitution

hollisx4 · Jul 25, 2017

92tide said:
well, some role was actually laid out in the constitution

Just cause it's legal, don't make it right.

And to be fair, the original language in the Commerce Clause only pertains to 3 specific items, Gov't has over the years assumed and claimed it meant they could regulate anything and everything. (Hello ObamaCare).

Tug Tide · Jul 25, 2017

This topic hits close to home:
On Christmas Eve last year, my father was taken to the hospital with total kidney failure. After quite a bit of time in the ICU, he is now on dialysis 3 times a week. His first evaluation at UAB, to see if he's a transplant candidate, is in 3 weeks. It's my intention to be tested as a living donor if he can receive a kidney. If I'm not a match for him, I plan to sign up for UAB's Incompatible Donor Program. I'm prayerful that soon we will have this behind us and he will be one the road to recovery.
I don't know how I feel about the topic of buying/selling kidneys as stated in the OP. I suppose I just feel that we are blessed as a family that he is still alive today.

Dad,
I know you don't read the NS sports board often, but if you see this;
I love you

Crimson1967 · Jul 25, 2017

Tug Tide said:
This topic hits close to home:
On Christmas Eve last year, my father was taken to the hospital with total kidney failure. After quite a bit of time in the ICU, he is now on dialysis 3 times a week. His first evaluation at UAB, to see if he's a transplant candidate, is in 3 weeks. It's my intention to be tested as a living donor if he can receive a kidney. If I'm not a match for him, I plan to sign up for UAB's Incompatible Donor Program. I'm prayerful that soon we will have this behind us and he will be one the road to recovery.
I don't know how I feel about the topic of buying/selling kidneys as stated in the OP. I suppose I just feel that we are blessed as a family that he is still alive today.

Dad,
I know you don't read the NS sports board often, but if you see this;
I love you

Is that the program where they try to link up chains of donors so everyone is giving to a stranger but they all have a family member get help?

Good luck to your father.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

G-VilleTider · Jul 25, 2017

Reb, bless you and your wife. Tug, bless you and your family. Thanks for sharing. The love you both have for your family shines through in your posts.

LA4Bama · Jul 25, 2017

This is somewhat different than the vasectomy situation since presumably the person is not under the power of the criminal punishment system. That said, there are plenty of reasons keep our current practice of only allowing donations. I'm not going to try to say all the reasons. Just intuitively, consider when you monetize the human body, you make everybody's body a commodity. If a man goes into debt and can't pay his bills, may his creditors claim his kidney? If not, why not, it has a value? If you want kidneys for sale, consider all of the power and leverage that goes into goods bought and sold. If a kidney is not something someone can put a lien on, ask yourself why. The answer is because it shouldn't be for sale having a monetary value.

4Q Basket Case · Jul 25, 2017

This is a tough, tough question.

On the one hand, it's my kidney. If somebody wants it bad enough to pay me enough to get me to part with it, that's between me and him. The economist in me also says that the high price will attract more offerors, which will fill more need.

But effectively reducing what would ideally be a humanitarian effort, to an auction, strikes me as something I wouldn't want to have to explain to St. Peter.

In a closely related question, where do you draw the line between supporting a surrogate mother through the pregnancy, and buying a human baby?

If you can get there, what about a human child who is no longer an in-arms infant? If you can get there, what about a human who is no longer a child? What about an adult human?

Personally, I feel strongly in all directions. In other words, I have no answers to any of these that I can't immediately shoot full of logical and/or moral holes.

If anybody can reconcile all these questions, I nominate them for King of the World.

Scratch that. I nominate them for The Second Coming.

Tug Tide · Jul 25, 2017

Crimson1967 said:
Is that the program where they try to link up chains of donors so everyone is giving to a stranger but they all have a family member get help?

Good luck to your father.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, it is. UAB has one of the most successful programs in the country. The basically put the donor/recipient test results in their database and try to match patients up. Both donation surgeries happen at the same time, to keep someone from backing out last minute.

Just the concepts of modern medicine are truly mind blowing.

Bamaro · Jul 26, 2017

There is something inherently very distasteful selling body parts to the highest bidder.

TIDE-HSV · Jul 26, 2017

Bama Reb said:
Mrs. Reb has lost function of her kidneys and must undergo dialysis 3x a week. Because she suffers from diabetes and chronic heart failure, she is not a candidate for kidney transplant. If she were, and the option was available, I would gladly buy a new kidney for her. As it is, we both make the best of a bad situation, and hope for the best.

I feel badly for you all. Q of L really goes down, once you're dependent on a machine. Many years ago, it appeared my sister might need a transplant. My BIL, her husband, polled the family for willingness. I said that I would have to think about it when the need actually arose. It turned out to be unnecessary and I was happy not to have to make the choice. One reason was there was familial evidence to indicate that kidney problems were a possibility for all of us, even in those pre-DNA days. At my age, 77, my kidneys are just adequate. One kidney would not be enough to carry me, so I would have also ended up on dialysis. On selling/buying, I'm conflicted, as I have many libertarian beliefs. I'm just not sure they extend into human organs. I'm somewhat influenced by what it's caused in India...

Tidewater · Jul 26, 2017

Places in Moldova (poorest country in Europe) where a significant source of income is selling kidneys.

Now, this is an abusive system, and I'm not arguing that similar abuse would happen in the US if this were allowed, so this is not a vote contra the proposition.

DzynKingRTR · Jul 26, 2017

Your insurance might ask for their cut of the dough you get

Should you be able to buy and sell kidneys?

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