No need to add fuel to the fire.Saban or someone from Alabama should go to the NCAA and say "Please explain this?"
No need to add fuel to the fire.Saban or someone from Alabama should go to the NCAA and say "Please explain this?"
I haven't touched the type of fouls, but I do imagine that would be offer a lot of insight.A great breakdown someone could do is look at the TYPE of fouls. As we track fouls (foul and who flagged it), about half of the fouls are procedural (i.e. false start, offsides, illegal formation, free kick out of bounds, delay of game). The undisciplined teams tend to have more of those and they would be less likely to vary week to week (completely hypothesizing).
I would definitely expect a team like Alabama to be in the top 1/3 of fewest penalty yards, and it wouldn't surprise me if their opponents were in the bottom 1/3. I think the better analysis is comparing the number of yards (or possibly number of penalties) rather than rankings because there may not be much difference in #1 compared to #20. The penalty yardage of opponents in Alabama games compared to average yardage for those teams against all other opponents is the most interesting difference.
What makes it somewhat inexplicable that there was a radical shift in penalties from 2010-2013 to 2014-2017.These may not be good examples but there could be some technical aspects in play.
I don't know enough about what penalties are more common but I do suspect there is something to the BiGTide's suggestion about stronger teams not getting the calls, even if it is sub-conscious by the refs.
The differences may seem small, but they are not. As a percentage, based only on your numbers: Alabama opponents @ 37.45 ypg, Ole Miss @ 56.23 ypg translates to Ole Miss opponents getting penalized for 150% of the yardage that Alabama opponents face. That is far from insignificant. And with the SEC average at 46.5 ypg across both periods, that meant at the average SEC team had its opponents get called for 25% more yardage in a game than Alabama - again, not insignificant.I exported the list of opponent fouls for 2010-2017 to see if I could find any trends. For 2010-2013 P5 averaged 50.36 opponent yards and G5 averaged 51.25. For 2014-2017 the averages were 52.43 and 54.67 respectively. The difference is not significant, but both were up 2-3 yards for the second period. For the P5 conferences, the SEC was the lowest in both periods (46.41 and 46.62) and PAC12 was the highest in both (58.53 and 59.10). The gap may seem high, but it's only equivalent to 1-2 fouls per game. Since the data range is small, it's a better measure than just ranking. There were no G5 conferences below the SEC in average opponent penalties. Since most of your games (including non-conference games) are officiated by SEC officials, this tells me the SEC crews are either less likely to flag borderline calls and/or the teams commit fewer fouls than other conferences. But not by a significant difference.
Within the SEC, Auburn had the lowest average at 39.50 in 2010-2013 but Alabama was one spot above it at 40.68. Texas A&M was the highest at 56.10 opponent yards. In 2014-2017 Alabama had the smallest opponent yards at 37.45 with Georgia the next closest at 40.08. The highest was Ole Miss at 56.23 yards. Ole Miss was the biggest gainer at 12.73 yards while Texas A&M was the biggest loser at 8.43 yards.
From what I see the yardage difference is relatively small, and the SEC is the least penalized conference in the country.
Let's say you are correct in saying the differences aren't that large. Wouldn't that put more emphasis on the differences in penalties against Alabama compared to the other games a team played?I exported the list of opponent fouls for 2010-2017 to see if I could find any trends. For 2010-2013 P5 averaged 50.36 opponent yards and G5 averaged 51.25. For 2014-2017 the averages were 52.43 and 54.67 respectively. The difference is not significant, but both were up 2-3 yards for the second period. For the P5 conferences, the SEC was the lowest in both periods (46.41 and 46.62) and PAC12 was the highest in both (58.53 and 59.10). The gap may seem high, but it's only equivalent to 1-2 fouls per game. Since the data range is small, it's a better measure than just ranking. There were no G5 conferences below the SEC in average opponent penalties. Since most of your games (including non-conference games) are officiated by SEC officials, this tells me the SEC crews are either less likely to flag borderline calls and/or the teams commit fewer fouls than other conferences. But not by a significant difference.
Within the SEC, Auburn had the lowest average at 39.50 in 2010-2013 but Alabama was one spot above it at 40.68. Texas A&M was the highest at 56.10 opponent yards. In 2014-2017 Alabama had the smallest opponent yards at 37.45 with Georgia the next closest at 40.08. The highest was Ole Miss at 56.23 yards. Ole Miss was the biggest gainer at 12.73 yards while Texas A&M was the biggest loser at 8.43 yards.
From what I see the yardage difference is relatively small, and the SEC is the least penalized conference in the country.
I think it's definitely an interesting data point and something I would be interested in looking into if I were the supervisor of officials. But if it ultimately is only a difference of 2-3 penalties per game over time, I wouldn't be concerned about it. We have some games with 6-8 fouls and some with 25+. If over the course of the season the difference is that small it wouldn't raise a serious red flag. If every opponent of Alabama had 3-4 fewer flags against Alabama than all their other games, that would be something I would want to look at deeper. It sounds like that is true based on another post. I'm pretty confident it's not a concerted effort by the conference or the officials, but it's possible the data could point to some trends. Everyone has conspiracy theories and they are always against their team. Its human nature.Let's say you are correct in saying the differences aren't that large. Wouldn't that put more emphasis on the differences in penalties against Alabama compared to the other games a team played?
We are talking about over 700 yards over a 4 year stretch though! I get what you mean, oh just a little here or there, but it's basically death of a thousand cuts. You showed some of the splits, but not all of them. Alabama's penalties went up while their opponent penalties went down. If this barely moved the needle, ok fine. But it didn't, it's hundreds and hundreds of yards of penalties!But if it ultimately is only a difference of 2-3 penalties per game over time, I wouldn't be concerned about it.
I agree, and actually take it further. There's no way to know how much difference we are talking. Stats show that something is happening, but cannot show a baseline from which to measure a difference. That would require us to assume that average is a baseline, but that assumption is unjustified. It could be that Bama opponents should be more heavily penalized than average. Random distortion varies around an average but systematic distortion sets up a whole other pattern. The fact that stats suggest systematic rather than random distortion is very problematic and should not be met with the reply, oh well, it's only a small deviation. That's impossible to know without a complete survey.We are talking about over 700 yards over a 4 year stretch though! I get what you mean, oh just a little here or there, but it's basically death of a thousand cuts. You showed some of the splits, but not all of them. Alabama's penalties went up while their opponent penalties went down. If this barely moved the needle, ok fine. But it didn't, it's hundreds and hundreds of yards of penalties!
Does the NCAA provide referees for any Alabama games?Saban or someone from Alabama should go to the NCAA and say "Please explain this?"
Never directly. Conferences hire officials and assign them to games. For non conference games the contract will dictate which conference will be used for officials. They sometimes use neutral conferences.Does the NCAA provide referees for any Alabama games?
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Are there any "point of emphasis" penalties this year? Or any referee tidbits that have come from the officiating world that are note worthy?Never directly. Conferences hire officials and assign them to games. For non conference games the contract will dictate which conference will be used for officials. They sometimes use neutral conferences.
For the bowls/playoffs, a conference is assigned to each game and the conference then assigns the officials.
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The rule changes were covered in this topic: https://www.tidefans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295734Are there any "point of emphasis" penalties this year? Or any referee tidbits that have come from the officiating world that are note worthy?
That's a good change. I never understood the tendency to want to expose the knee cap to a helmet to knee hit with the shorter pants.A rule change that was passed last year but put into effect this year is knee pads need to cover the knee. Too many players were wearing bicycle shorts and the rules committee wanted them to use knee pads as they were designed.
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The changes which are designed to shorten the game are sort of a joke, inasmuch as the networks simply fill any time freed up with more commercials...The rule changes were covered in this topic: https://www.tidefans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295734
The points of emphases are safety related. This really isn't different for us but is a reminder for everyone else. Stay way form the head and don't use your head!
Probably the most impactful rule change will be the receiving team's ability to fair catch a free kick (i.e. kickoff or kick after safety) inside their own 25 and get the ball at the 25. It's another attempt to reduce the number of kick returns. The other big change is to help with time of game. After a TD a team will have 40 seconds like any other play to get their extra point team on the field and snap the ball. It still remains to be seen how that will happen with games involving replay since the replay official needs to confirm the score before the try. I imagine we'll see formal reviews if there is any question. A team will also only have 40 seconds after a kick off to get their offense on the field and run a play. A rule change that was passed last year but put into effect this year is knee pads need to cover the knee. Too many players were wearing bicycle shorts and the rules committee wanted them to use knee pads as they were designed.
There are a few other changes, but as fans you probably won't notice them much. They don't happen that often.
Exactly. They've been doing it for years.The changes which are designed to shorten the game are sort of a joke, inasmuch as the networks simply fill any time freed up with more commercials...
And the games get longer and loooooooonnnnngggger...Exactly. They've been doing it for years.