1975 Sugar Bowl - Coach Bryant vs Tom Osborne

[deliveryman35]

The Orange Bowl was not obligated to anything but the Big Eight.
The Sugar Bowl was not obligated to anyone.

Bryant was willing to take the Orange Bowl if it offered him a title chance.
The Orange Bowl wasn't willing to wait until the games of 11/22 were completed (which he requested), so they chose Michigan.

The old man did a lot great, but he miscalculated this one - since Oklahoma wound up winning the national championship when #1 Ohio St lost to UCLA in the Rose Bowl. If we'd beaten OU, we'd have been the champs that time, too.

The Sugar did not have a tie-in with the SEC at that time? If not then when did that start? Just curious.

 

[81usaf92]

The Sugar did not have a tie-in with the SEC at that time? If not then when did that start? Just curious.

1976

 

[selmaborntidefan]

The Sugar did not have a tie-in with the SEC at that time? If not then when did that start? Just curious.

The next year.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

1976

I'll respond to you later on that other issue (still at work).

 

[Tenntiderman]

I lived in Omaha from 08-14 (Bellevue really but 10 minutes doesn’t make a huge difference). The year they went to the BIG 10 there was this big shot that owned a car lot that bought some BIG 10 Championship tickets for that year and had a door prize for a come on his car lot sale and there were so many people that Douglas County had to bill him for security.

Well when someone does some gimmick that is profitable then everyone else has to. At the CWS that year, just about every bar and beer garden either had 2 tickets to the Big 10 championship or a vacation package to Indianapolis on that weekend that they were raffling away.

They were SO sure that they would own the Big 10 just by showing up that year and were just so blown away when Russell Wilson carved them up on their first Big 10 game. Then they started this bull crap that Wisconsin was better than Texas, and a worthy opponent that they would be happy to play again in Indianapolis for the right to play for a national championship (they were in opposite divisions then). But Nebraska dropped a game to NW, and Michigan.

Like Selma hinted at, they are more like the cultists at Auburn than a blue blood at Alabama. I think a lot of Bama fans just assume what they saw from their fans in the 70’s and how Osborne has been portrayed in the media as the gospel truth of how they are. But nothing could be further from the truth.

I know there are some fine people in their ranks...but I have sure met some buttheads that are Husker oriented. There is a Husker family here in Spring Hill that I see in restaurants. How do I know they are Huskers?? Ha! Because I have seen them more than a few times...and the whole family dresses head to toe in Nebraska gear. EVIDENTLY....EVERYWHERE they go!! I know I know.....lots of SEC fans..especially UTk fans do the same. And it is true..but I see these folks ofte...and always always...they are decked out like they are headed out to see the Huskers tangle.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

The Sugar did not have a tie-in with the SEC at that time? If not then when did that start? Just curious.

Btw - this was news to me, too.

The Sugar Bowl had always had a sort of non-binding agreement with the SEC and for one reason only: Bryant didn't want it. The Sugar usually invited an SEC team, but there was no written contract. In 1968, the AP announced that bowl games would count towards the title, in 1970 Notre Dame began going again, and in 1974, the Big Ten decided that they would permit other bowls besides the Rose. When that occurred, the Orange Bowl rolled the dice and locked in a Big Eight opponent that they figured would (more often than not) be Oklahoma - and had visions of the winter bound Great Plains members of the Big Eight flying down to Miami for sun and football. OU was the biggest fish in the pond from the Big Eight, of course.

The SEC wanted it as a back door guarantee. Because the Rose/Cotton/Sugar/Orange were the big payday, the SEC was afraid that with the new arrangements (the Orange taking Michigan in 1975 a great example), the entire conference might get left out of the big money game. Bryant decided - in this instance - to look out for the conference finances as a whole, and it probably cost him the 1977 national title. Rumor is that Bryant told Johnny Vaught if he could get seven votes for the contract, Bryant would deliver himself and the other two.

So don't feel too bad - because I didn't know there was no written contract, either.

 

[Sooner]

As an OU fan who was a senior in HS that year I'd like to give you my perspective on this situation with Nebraska at that time.

First, back then teams were only on national TV two to three times a year so to say that Alabama was "bigger" than Nebraska probably wasn't true nationally. We saw both teams about the same amount of times each season. Nebraska had won two NCs in '70 and '71 and Bama got a UPI in '73. But I think all the blue bloods were considered pretty equal back in those days.

Second, the idea that Bama "dodged" Nebraska in '75 came out of what happened in '71 and '72. In '71 Nebraska beat Alabama solidly in the Orange Bowl. Meanwhile, Oklahoma easily beat Auburn in the Sugar Bowl. However, the next year BOTH Oklahoma and Nebraska were opponents available to Bryant in the Tide for Bowl season. Bryant, for reasons the Big 8 people didn't understand, chose to go to the Cotton Bowl and play Texas instead.

I'm sure that the '75 issue with Nebraska was just carryover from the '72 season. The other thing to remember about back then is that the Big 8 was considered as strong a league if not stronger than the SEC. Nebraska, Oklahoma, and Colorado finished #1, #2, and #3 in the national polls in 1971 and were still pretty strong throughout the 1970s despite the fact that OU or Nebraska was winning it every year. By the '80s the league had OU, Nebraska and maybe one other good team and the rest were horrible.

I do remember Nebraska fans coming to Norman in 1975 and they thought they were going to win. The game was close until the fourth quarter and then OU blew them out.

Great thread. Appreciate all the research.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

As an OU fan who was a senior in HS that year I'd like to give you my perspective on this situation with Nebraska at that time.

First, back then teams were only on national TV two to three times a year so to say that Alabama was "bigger" than Nebraska probably wasn't true nationally. We saw both teams about the same amount of times each season. Nebraska had won two NCs in '70 and '71 and Bama got a UPI in '73. But I think all the blue bloods were considered pretty equal back in those days.

I don't necessarily know that I'd buy this one, but it IS ultimately a perception of opinion. But my bigger point is also undisputed: Alabama would sell out the venue in New Orleans, and Nebraska had shown the year before that they wouldn't (that was my bigger point). And I'll be fair to Nebraska - one might well blame Florida for it but......the Nebraska in newspaper excuse that it was because Alabama and Auburn fans had bought up the tickets....I mean, I realize Stub Hub didn't exist, but you could still sell your seats.

Second, the idea that Bama "dodged" Nebraska in '75 came out of what happened in '71 and '72. In '71 Nebraska beat Alabama solidly in the Orange Bowl. Meanwhile, Oklahoma easily beat Auburn in the Sugar Bowl. However, the next year BOTH Oklahoma and Nebraska were opponents available to Bryant in the Tide for Bowl season. Bryant, for reasons the Big 8 people didn't understand, chose to go to the Cotton Bowl and play Texas instead.

Not directed against you (obviously), but all it really takes is looking at the polls to figure it out. The bowl bids were released on November 19, 1972. Anyone who understood Bryant (or who has read more than 2 books on the man) KNOWS his obsession was the national championship. Here's the polls on November 13:

1) USC - obligated to the Rose Bowl
2) Alabama - unbeaten, free agent
3) Michigan - unbeaten, obligated to the Rose Bowl

So.....he already knows he's probably toast at this point unless one of the two teams loses. Naturally, Michigan loses on 11/25....AFTER Alabama already has accepted a Cotton Bowl bid.

4) Oklahoma (7-1) - loss to Colorado
5) Nebraska (7-1-1) - loss to UCLA, a tie to 5-2 Iowa St (who finishes 5-6-1)

These two teams are going to play one another, which is going to take one of them out of the equation on 11/23. If Nebraska wins - and the game is in Lincoln, the Huskers are defending national champions, and other than their loss to UCLA in the opener and the tie, no team has been closer than 23 points to Nebraska at the end of the game (and other than Colorado, NO TEAM has been closer than 30 at the final gun) - and Alabama opts to play Nebraska, the Tide is probably completely eliminated using the "but they already had a loss and a tie" argument.

The counter, of course, is Oklahoma, but why would Bryant think Oklahoma was going to win?

- Nebraska has the Heisman Trophy winner in their backfield
-the game is in Lincoln, where Nebraska had not lost since 1968
- Nebraska killed Colorado, the one team that beat OU
- Nebraska is a four-point favorite

If Bryant knows Oklahoma is unbeaten and will win, it's a different story entirely. But if the favorite wins, he's stuck playing a team with both a loss and a tie when he COULD be playing one-loss Texas and hoping for some losses by other teams.

6) Penn State - an independent but viewed nationally back then about like Boise St is nowadays

7) Texas - one-loss Cotton Bowl SWC rep, not likely to lose to TCU or ATM


But there's more, namely, this quote from some guy named Ara Parseghian at the time, who apparently must have seen Alabama in his PTSD dreams. Indeed, I swallowed my proverbial snuff reading this, and my language right now is unprintable on this board.

The Salina Journal (KS) from 11/21/72, page 16:

CHICAGO (AP) - Notre Dame Coach Ara Parseghian took a swipe Monday at Alabama's decision to go to the Cotton Bowl instead of the Orange Bowl, but other coaches were much more generous about the choice. Parsehigan said that, 'Alabama took the easy way out' by choosing to face once-beaten Texas rather than taking on defending national champion Nebraska in the Orange Bowl. Alabama's decision paved the way for Notre Dame, 8-1, to get a bid to play Nebraska in the Orange Bowl. Parseghian said Bear Bryant's Alabama team had its sights on the national championship in picking the Cotton instead of the Orange, where Nebraska swamped the Crimson Tide, 38-6, last year. 'I guess Alabama figures on beating Auburn and Texas for an undefeated season and then hopes Ohio State beats Michigan and we beat Southern Cal,' Parseghian said, 'which would leave Alabama the only undefeated team in the nation.' Bryant was not available for comment but Nebraska Coach Bob Devaney said he talked to the Bear by phone about the decision. 'He said it was up to the players to make the choice where they wanted to go.' He said, 'I think the seniors should have the choice because it's their last year to compete. They chose to go to the Cotton Bowl.'

'I'm not in any way criticizing Coach Bryant,' Devaney said. 'I don't think they are ducking anybody because he (Bryant) is going to play a tough team when he plays the University of Texas.'


But here's the central point: if Ara Parseghian can understand what Bryant was thinking, why is this so difficult for anyone else? The difference, of course, is Bryant wasn't trying to back in with a tie and then avoid a bowl game, but I digress.


Bryant's decision was a gamble. Of course, once we lost the infamous Punt game against Auburn a few weeks later, it didn't matter. But the whole idea of "Alabama is ducking" teams is so laughably absurd that it really demeans anyone who makes it. We hear the same thing about Saban nowadays - never mind that Alabama has played more games and more top teams and won more games than any other team in any decade in CFB history.

The decision to play Texas was PERFECTLY RATIONAL and in line with trying to win a championship.
If Nebraska or Oklahoma wanted to play Alabama so bad, they should have won their games.

I'm sure that the '75 issue with Nebraska was just carryover from the '72 season.

Except that in 1973, Alabama could EASILY have told the Sugar Bowl that they'd play Penn State, the team with the Heisman winner (and the viewers his story of "Something for Joey" would bring to the tube). Bryant opted for Notre Dame because #2 Oklahoma was on probation, so he faced number 3.

The other thing to remember about back then is that the Big 8 was considered as strong a league if not stronger than the SEC. Nebraska, Oklahoma, and Colorado finished #1, #2, and #3 in the national polls in 1971 and were still pretty strong throughout the 1970s despite the fact that OU or Nebraska was winning it every year. By the '80s the league had OU, Nebraska and maybe one other good team and the rest were horrible.

The Big 8 was probably a stronger league en toto in the early 1970s. Starting in 1966 (the first time the SEC and Big 8 began playing more than once a year, usually in a bowl) through 1972, the Big 8 went 9-5-1. The biggest Big 8 dominance came 68-72, when the Big 8 held an 8-3-1 advantage. The SEC then went 8-3 (73-74) and then the Big 8 went 8-0-1 from 75 through 77.

So it's fair to say that 20-13-2 in favor of the Big 8 is pretty strong odds.

I won't argue the point because I tend to agree with you (though it's hilarious the Big 8 fans who want to invoke 71 and 72 are so silent about 73 and 74 when THEY are the ones talking about 75). The SEC in the 1970s, quite frankly, was Alabama and 1 to 2 teams that rotated around the league when they had a good year and - in most cases - got to avoid Alabama on the schedule. The 1970s SEC was a lot like the 2002-2009 Pac Ten, one sizzling dominant team and an occasional contestant.

I do remember Nebraska fans coming to Norman in 1975 and they thought they were going to win. The game was close until the fourth quarter and then OU blew them out.

Great thread. Appreciate all the research.

Appreciate you sharing your memories and views. Welcome!

 

[Sooner]

This is all great research but if you came to Big 8 country and said it was "laughable" that Bear dodged the Big 8 in 1972 you'd have a fight on your hands with the old timers who were around then. "The Bear is Chicken" was the theme of the day around here that year.

I think the fly in the ointment for your rational is that Texas' one loss that year was to Oklahoma who beat them 27-0 in the Cotton Bowl. Secondly, both Nebraska and OU were ranked ahead of Texas when bowl bids went out. Between that and the fact that the year before the Big 8 had gone 1-2-3 the year before and the 38-6 Orange bowl loss, it would appear that Coach Bryant was picking the team that he felt like he had the best chance of beating as opposed to playing the best team available.

I suppose you are making the case that playing Texas was a better option than an 8-2-1 Nebraska team (assuming Oklahoma beat them) because Texas would be ranked ahead of Nebraska. But they would obviously still ranked be behind Oklahoma. As you said, after the Auburn loss it really became a moot point.
Really doesn't matter who Bama played in the bowl (assuming they beat Auburn) they still had to win. But O don't get that you are saying that Bryant (or the team) picked the Cotton Bowl because Texas was the best team available. I assume you are saying it was the most "pragmatic" choice.

Finally, I was in the crowd at OU the day they announced that Auburn had won that game. The crowd went crazy. The "We're Number One Chant" went up in a big way. It's weird but you don't hear that chant anymore.

 

[B1GTide]

This is all great research but if you came to Big 8 country and said it was "laughable" that Bear dodged the Big 8 in 1972 you'd have a fight on your hands with the old timers who were around then. "The Bear is Chicken" was the theme of the day around here that year.

I think the fly in the ointment for your rational is that Texas' one loss that year was to Oklahoma who beat them 27-0 in the Cotton Bowl. Between that and the fact that the year before the Big 8 had gone 1-2-3 it would appear that Coach Bryant was picking the team that he felt like he had the best chance of beating as opposed to playing the best team available.

Just goes to show you - fans are delusional everywhere. If there was ever a coach who wanted his team to play the best teams in America, it was Bryant.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

This is all great research but if you came to Big 8 country and said it was "laughable" that Bear dodged the Big 8 in 1972 you'd have a fight on your hands with the old timers who were around then. "The Bear is Chicken" was the theme of the day around here that year.

The fact a bunch of people in the center of the country believed something dumb doesn't make it any less dumb. It all sounds good, it makes Big 8 hearts beat fast - but gee, Bryant squared off against Notre Dame in 1973 AND 1974 (after losing in 73), so it's just plain absurd.

And besides - do you really think that the Orange Bowl wanted a rematch of the previous year's game?

I think the fly in the ointment for your rational is that Texas' one loss that year was to Oklahoma who beat them 27-0 in the Cotton Bowl. Secondly, both Nebraska and OU were ranked ahead of Texas when bowl bids went out.

Except for the fact that it was quite common in those days for the polls to "self shuffle" after the dust had cleared. It makes sense if Bryant knows OU is going to win.

But why would he think that? If OU loses, Texas with their one-loss likely shuffles ahead of Nebraska. If OU wins, he's dead.

Between that and the fact that the year before the Big 8 had gone 1-2-3 the year before and the 38-6 Orange bowl loss, it would appear that Coach Bryant was picking the team that he felt like he had the best chance of beating as opposed to playing the best team available.

Yes, Bryant was notorious for dropping teams that smashed him flat. In 1970, USC routed Alabama in Birmingham. Bryant, chicken that the Big 8 fans want to say, conferred with John McKay at midfield and told him that he wanted to buy out of the next year's game because he was so embarrassed at getting beat.

Oh, no, that's not what happened now, is it?

Let's see - he gets smoked by USC and doesn't duck out of a contract.
He loses a national title to Notre Dame then HIMSELF HELPS ARRANGE the rematch.

I'm sorry, but those two games alone overthrow this ridiculous idea.

We're used to it, though. Bryant was supposedly scared to play Ole Miss and LSU. The conference mandated the teams play, and Bryant ran up a 28-7 record against them.


Did it ever dawn on anyone in the Big Eight that as Bryant had once coached at Texas A/M, maybe he wanted another shot at Texas, given Alabama had never beaten the Longhorns?

I suppose you are making the case that playing Texas was a better option than an 8-2-1 Nebraska team (assuming Oklahoma beat them) because Texas would be ranked ahead of Nebraska. But they would obviously still ranked be behind Oklahoma.

His assumption was obviously that Nebraska would win.
If he had thought OU would win, it changes the equation.

Of course, it's also much of what was wrong with the entire bowl setup.

As you said, after the Auburn loss it really became a moot point.
Really doesn't matter who Bama played in the bowl (assuming they beat Auburn) they still had to win. But O don't get that you are saying that Bryant (or the team) picked the Cotton Bowl because Texas was the best team available. I assume you are saying it was the most "pragmatic" choice.

Bryant figured beating a one-loss SWC champion in the state of Texas would be better for his national title chances than beating a one-loss and one tie Nebraska in Miami. Bryant - like everyone else - likely figured that Nebraska wins that game.

And guess what? He can't afford to get into the argument of "but Nebraska wasn't as good this year because, after all, they tied Iowa State, who had a losing record." Believe me, we've heard it all here, and no matter who we play, we get criticized.

When Saban scheduled FSU for 2017, we beat them handily. At the end of the year, we heard crap about UCF. But guess what would have happened if we had opened against UCF? "Oh, Saban is just afraid to play Florida State because they beat him in 2007."

We can always name a team some team didn't play, but it doesn't mean anyone was "scared" of anyone - except, of course, the time Miami skipped out on a Sugar Bowl with Florida (1992) to make sure they got a not-so-great Nebraska team on their home field and scooted to the national title.

Finally, I was in the crowd at OU the day they announced that Auburn had won that game. The crowd went crazy. The "We're Number One Chant" went up in a big way. It's weird but you don't hear that chant anymore.

No, you don't.

I was blessed to be at the 2015 Alabama-LSU game when it came on the board that Arky had upset Ole Miss. That stadium was shaking at that point - and I know that UPS driver they'd just introduced bringing out the game ball was wondering why they were cheering so loudly for him, heh heh.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

And I reiterate: the Big Eight wasn't mad because they actually thought Bryant was scared;
they were angry because the Fiesta Bowl of 1975 paid something like 1/6 what the Sugar Bowl played, and they wanted that money. They're more mad about not getting the money for their schools than they are about whether they'd have won or not.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

One more point: last night (for the first time ever), I watched the 1984 Orange Bowl.

Nebraska couldn't even sell out the Miami Orange Bowl for a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP football game, returning 5,000 tickets.

Nebraska didn't sell out their ticket allotment for the 1974 Sugar Bowl.

I think the Sugar Bowl not inviting Nebraska in 1975 might have a whole lot more to do with money and a whole lot less to do with "But Alabama is SKEERED of us."

 

[rolltd]

Richard Todd recently told he and about 20 other players missed curfew a few days before Sugar bowl against Penn State. Bryant was gonna send them all back to Ttown, but Mal and others changed his mind

 

[selmaborntidefan]

Richard Todd recently told he and about 20 other players missed curfew a few days before Sugar bowl against Penn State. Bryant was gonna send them all back to Ttown, but Mal and others changed his mind

Funny thing is that a similar thing happened with Bill Curry's Ga Tech team when they played in the 1985 Hall of Fame Classic in Birmingham. Starting QB John Dewberry and 3 other starters were out wandering B'ham late at night and Curry sent them home prior to the game with Michigan State.

Coincidentally, the Mich St DC was some guy named Saban. Tech won the game (yes, Curry beat Saban as embarrassing as that sounds) - but Sparty WR Mark Ingram Sr was the MVP of the game.

Noticing a bunch of six degrees of everyone here.......

 

[Bama1985]

Thanks for the memories.

I actually went to the Penn St vs Alabama Sugar Bowl in 1975 on New Years Eve. I was just 13. Bama won 13-6 and Richard Todd was the MVP. I remember the Super Dome was fairly new and we took a tour of the facility a few days before the game--I remember they rented out apartments inside the Dome and we toured one. Later, I tried to get Coach Bryant's autograph in the lobby of the team hotel. The pen I gave him to sign with ran out of ink; Coach just said "this pen don't write son" . He handed me back the pen and then the elevator door closed and he was gone. We were staying in the same hotel as the Penn State band. Next day I rode the elevator with Joe Pa and a couple of Penn St players who were going to the top floor on our hotel for a pep rally with the Penn St band. I had my Alabama jacket on, they never looked at me. Saw Joe Pa walking alone with his white rain coat on outside the parking garage of the hotel a few hours after they loss. He looked dejected. That's the way it was on New Years eve 45 years ago...

 

[selmaborntidefan]

The Sugar did not have a tie-in with the SEC at that time? If not then when did that start? Just curious.

Bizarrely enough, the SEC DID have a contract with the Gator Bowl - it actually began in 1953 and 1975 was the last year of the contract. This contract, however, was not a guarantee for the SEC champion, either.

 

[Bama Czar]

Bizarrely enough, the SEC DID have a contract with the Gator Bowl - it actually began in 1953 and 1975 was the last year of the contract. This contract, however, was not a guarantee for the SEC champion, either.

I wanted to say that I greatly enjoy reading the historical posts that you put together, and I understand the amount of time that is required for the research. I hope you get enjoyment out of doing this. It is very much appreciated here.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

I wanted to say that I greatly enjoy reading the historical posts that you put together, and I understand the amount of time that is required for the research. I hope you get enjoyment out of doing this. It is very much appreciated here.

Thank you.

If it wasn't a joy, I certainly wouldn't do it.

Some I lived through, some I didn't. But it's always more important to me to get the story AS IT UNFOLDS rather than later revisionism. There's a bunch of myths out there that aren't true. One of the Alabama myths is, "But our 1966 schedule was soft because Tech and Tulane left the conference and we were forced to schedule La Tech." Except that game had nothing at all to do with who left the conference, as I noted in my 1966 write-up.

 

[TexasBama]

On the Sugar Bowl tie-in - in 1978, Bama and Georgia were both undefeated in the conference with 2 weeks left in the season. IIRC, if Georgia won out, they would go to the Sugar since Bama was there in 1977. Georgia was kind enough to tie Auburn and avoid the scenario.